Yes you can argue that MB still probably has better brand awareness and recognition, but as i said before, in the end, you can brag ALL you want about how your brand may be more wider known and respected, but if you're not selling as many cars as your main competitor, then something needs to change. It's as simple as that in the end, if you're not selling the most, then you're not on top (unless you want to argue in terms of profit margins, but that's a whole other bag or marbles).

Well for one we're talking about a small amount of cars here, nothing that can't be made up. Secondly sales aren't nearly the end-all in determining who is "on top". If that were the case VW would be the most prestigious German brand and we all know that isn't true. Sales are only part of the equation, and BMW and Mercedes aren't that far apart in sales to make it sound like the earth has moved.

M

Oh, but it has. As I stated, put back the clock to 1990 (doesnt seem too long ago actually) ..you would have to be a very brave man (or a crazy one) to predict that in 10-15years time BMW would get close to beating Mercedes in sales, let along actually surpass them. Yes the margin may be fairly small, but that's not the point here. The point is that not only has gap closed, but the tables have turned and there is a new leader in terms of global sales.

Hehehe, I expected a comment like that sooner or later. Again, you are missing the point, it's not the gap which is the focal point of this thread (and that article that Osna posted at the start), the point is Mercedes should have never been in the situation to allow BMW to get so close. Ofcourse it's inevitable that BMW and Audi would close the gap, but it's not like we could see this coming a decade ago. Only recently have we realised that MB is not as strong as we once thought, and also that BMW and Audi have become stronger.
The way I see it is, it's not a matter of how much of a difference there is, heck, it wouldn't make a difference if BMW beat MB in sales by just 1 car...it's the fact that MB even let its competition get so close after it had such a strong, favourable and unique position atop of the luxury car market.

..and oh, this point you keep making about how the gap "isn't all that much of a difference". All I got to say is, if you were the Marketing Manager for MB and that was your main arguement, then I pity what CEO and Board of Directors would do to you.

Guys, i'm really amazed with this discussion and all of your quality posts, especially yours mate, Beemer Boi. Keep 'em coming!

Look I understand what you're saying, what I don't agree with is the hype part of it. I'm not surprised that BMW has closed the gap on sales, and the reasons why have been listed throughout this thread, but all this talk like it is the end of the world is just plain ridiculous.

If I were a marketing manager for Mercedes-Benz my response would be to get the company back on track instead of pining away on oh how the great have fallen and oh how did we let this happen and so on. It has happened, now its time to deal with it, but this attitude like Mercedes was some type of god and could never be caught is silly. They're a car company like all the rest and such a long run as they've had at the top was bound to come to an end sooner or latter - nothing lasts forever.

BTW, I never said that the gap was the focal point, you made it that will this talk about the bottom line being that if you aren't selling more cars than your competitors you aren't on top stuff, I didn't. You made the statement about sales being what puts one "on top", and I was merely pointing out that the sales gap wasn't even serious enough to warrant such doomsday talk. Of course I understand the bigger picture here, read anything I've said about Mercedes around here.

M

Also on the sales issue, BMW's lineup as a whole is a lot newer than Mercedes' so of course they're going to set the sales charts on fire - in short they've been working overtime to gain the lead.

Nearly every single BMW model is no older than 3 years. The 7-Series came out in 2002, the 5 and 6-Series in 2003, the X3 & 1-Series in 2004 and 3-Series in 2005. Only the X5 is older than 3 years having arrived for 2000.

Now if an when Mercedes has a new S, revamped E and new C all on the market and they still can't suprass BMW then IMO there will be something major to worry about. The outgoing S-Class goes back to 1998! The E-Class came out in 2002 and the C in 2000, quite a difference from BMW.

Is this BMW's fault? No. The A, B, M, R, S, and upcoming GL combined with a new C, facelifted SL and E, should turn the tide for Mercedes, and there is evidence of this already because Mercedes sales are finally growing, late as it is in the year.

Anyone that revamps their entire lineup in just a little over 3 years is bound to experience tremendous sales growth. If all the new products had gone unnoticed BMW would be in real trouble.

Now when MB replaces all their bread and butter cars (like BMW has since 2002) and still can't catch BMW, then and only then will the order have truly changed.

This is a temporary situation in my opinion. Now we'll see in the next 12-18 months if I'm wrong or not. If so I'll be the first to admit it.

M

Very true. But while they say the A-class isnt cheaply built anymore, nearly all magazines still say that the Golf, and many small Japanese cars, are superior to the A in nearly every respect, and that simply should not be the case for a Benz. It does the company no favours when a ford focus, mazda 3, opel astra etc. etc. make a complete mockery out of the A in comparisons. What exactly does the A bring to the table that is tangibly superior to any of these other cars....absolutley nothing. Apart from the badge and styling, if thats what you like. And you can't trade on brand name forever when the product is clearly inferior.

Roberto, they could have told Bruno to design a lawn mower, and he would have had to oblige. The old A was simply ghastly in and out. The interior in particular was pitiful.

Merc1, while you make a valid point about BMW's lineup being fresher, it should also be noted that BMW also has a considerable product onslaught lined up. If anything I think the gap is going to widen a bit more before benz gains the sales edge, if they ever do. But ultimately, sales are not what concern me. I'm more interested in the product. I think Zetsche understands that sales aren't the be all and end all of things, and the company has to improve its profit margins considerably and offer better, class leading, products.

While 10 years ago it may have been unthinkable that BMW would overtake Benz, it has happened. But all is not lost, they just need to get back to what they do best.

Well, sorry, I tough everybody knew that all major german corporations (Siemens, Bosch, Hugo Boss, DB AG, VW AG, BMW and so on) all used slave workers.

That's just stupid. The 328 was not a plain sport car.
Bristol, Fraser-Nash, Lotus, Cooper, Healey, AC, Jaguar were all influenced by the 328 (they used it's cloned engine and or suspentions and/or copied/were influnced by its body, used some of its technological solutions).

Compared to what happened to BMW and Auto Union that was almost nothing. Read Beemerboi's reply.


While BMW was producing also cooking pots, MB started four years before BMW to produce cars. Not a big time lead IMHO.

Why that's just your take on it.
Here is a quote from beemer boi

You're right about the A-Class thats why I've alway said I'd get rid of it. Though the new A is much better, I still don't think enough Mercedes-Benz DNA can be put into a car of that price to make it "special". Ditto for the B-Class. However without them Mercedes would be down like over 150K sales this year. The problem with that segment is that fun to drive and sportiness is the thing and that isn't Mercedes' forte. I envision a small sedan like the original 190E, under the current C-Class, much sportier, kinda like what BMW's rumored 1-Series sedan will be like, but more practical with a better interior than any other car in the class - I know a pipe dream at best.

I would say that BMW and Mercedes both have a product onslaught on the way, but after the 3-Series rollout and new X5 next year things will likely cool off for about a year while Mercedes does their thing with the next C, FL E, FL SL, CL, GL and X-Class, and then a new E-Class and so on. When you really look at they both have a busy product schedule ahead actually because times seems to pass so quickly nowadays so it seems that BMW and MB both always have something new.

I agree that quality and engineering needs to be the focus, but some seem to think more sales are everything, and I disagree with that. I guess it doesn't surprise me for BMW to pass Mercedes in sales when you look at their overall lineups, Mercedes is more expensive in most cases that has to affect sales - especially when the quality has slipped big time..before it didn't matter...people would pay whatever for a Benz when the advantage was clear.

M

This is a little passage of information I borrowed from another thread.

It's an interview with Dr. Helmut Panke, the Chairman of the Board of Management of BMW AG.
(Click Here for Link to this thread (Edmunds interview w/ Helmut Panke...) )

What have you learned from competitors like Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler about stretching your product portfolio?

We have learned one thing here in the U.S. that is clearer than in other parts of the world: In order to be successful, even in a tough competitive environment, you have to have a clear, authentic brand. You can't try to be something that you aren't. The ultimate driving machine has worked well in the U.S., and it will work well for new models. We are not diluting. We are sharpening and focusing. You have to be able to drive any BMW product blindfolded and feel immediately it's a BMW. Take [Mercedes-Benz] — the A-Class and B-Class have completely different driver concepts. They feel different from other three-pointed-star products.


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I think that pretty much confirms the points made so far in this thread. Even to the point where he uses similar words such as 'clear', 'focus', 'sharp' and 'diluting'.
BMW know exact what their qualities and attributes are....and more importantly, they know what associations consumers have about the BMW brand. A true success story of corporate management, ...and how a simple, clearly defined and focused strategy can pay-off handsomely.

Feel free to discuss this, because I quite enjoy this thread and its level of discussion.