Honestly, even if I don't like Lexus a lot, I reckon it is prestigious. Not a lot in Europe, because it's not known and very rare, with few dealers.
But it's undoubtedly a prestigious brand.

Today, prestige is merely the ability to make you dream, so in terms of cars to build something luxurious, rich looking.

The trouble is that they have no aim, they only copy the best cars (Mercedes for the S-Class, BMW for the 3er in particular).

So no real ideal, no philosophy, nothing that could possibly make the customers identify themselves with the brand. That is why I don't like Lexus, and why generally it is considered to have less prestige than the Germans. You can't identify yourself with the brand because it has no identity. Only very good cars, not more.

But prestige, well, I think it is quite prestigious, because it's expensive, luxurious and today it's enough. Don't need a 100-years history to appear prestigious today.

Thing is, a lot of people know Benz is old, but have no idea it won a lot of races and discovered almost everything you find in modern cars. They even don't know Benz and Daimler invented the car. This history is only knowned by people really interested in cars. And it is not the majority of the customers. That is why Lexus manages what they manages in such a small amount of time.

^ I agree with you Amaury -- you have articulated my own thoughts on this matter very well ....perhaps we need to recognize there is a difference between prestige and substance -- there are many luxury brands with very little substance.

Mercedes undeniably has both prestige and substance ....and that is why we hold it in such high regard.

BRUCE, if you're reading this: NO OFFENSE!!!



Good points, Rob. But I still have no love for Lexus. They're a good brand but they're incredibly overrated in my book.


This is the way I see it.

Since the beginning the companies of Benz and Daimler (and later Daimler-Benz) have been at the forefront of technology be it technical innovation, motorsport, safety research etc. A pioneering spirit driven by their passion for their work is what most people associate with Karl Benz (and his wife) and Gottlieb Daimler. Daimler-Benz has a vast history of being a dominant force in all niches they're involved in be it premium passenger cars, commercial vehicles, military motorization, naval and aviation motorization and even German Aerospace (DASA).

I don't think I need to remind you of the some of the great cars Mercedes-Benz has brought out over time starting with the Mercedes Simplex, Blitzen Benz, SSK, SSKL, 500K and 540K, 320 Stromlinie. And those are just a few of the pre-war Mercedes' cars that in their time were already considered technical (and design) masterpieces.

Innovation and safety? Need I go on here? You know very well that Daimler-Benz had a large part in this field. This company popularized diesel passenger cars and diesel luxury cars for instance - at a time when many companies were scoffing at that very idea.

Motorsport? Again, this speaks for itself. You know that Mercedes has a very long and successful motorsport heritage with many victories and technical innovations. MB was also very successful in rallying, something few people know.

I could go on, but the point is that Mercedes has history to offer - and lots of it. When one examines this history and detail, it becomes clear how much Daimler-Benz has contributed and achieved. I have a lot of books about Mercedes-Benz at home that I've not been able to read. I myself learn new things about them on a daily basis.


Now...

All of a sudden Lexus comes along. Lexus? What's that? The very word "Lexus" is a shameless rip off of the German word "luxus", which means luxury. Damn, these guys have already displayed unmatched creativity here with that one! Mercedes' cars got their name from a little girl of one of Daimler's earliest and most loyal customers. Lexus got their name from a German word where they changed one letter. Now, obviously a name has to come from somewhere but this is just lame and to me, passionless. Why not give the brand a beautiful Japanese female name? Megumi? Akane? Lexus didn't even have a solid philosophy at the beginning. They just wanted to be the Japanese Mercedes-Benz and shamelessly copied many aspects of the German brand, including how to name their cars (LS400, GS300 etc.).

But more importantly, Lexus was founded in what, 1989? And they've had Toyota to back them up with massive amounts of money. You can say virtually unlimited cash funds were pumped into Lexus in those days. It wouldn't surprise me if Lexus were sold at a loss in those days for the sole reason of getting market share - because these days Lexus has raised prices to almost nose-bleeding levels. Lexus has never had to struggle financially. Mercedes and BMW were virtually destroyed at the end of World War II for example and decades afterwards they had to pay massive fines to former slave laborers used during WW2.

Oh, and the first Lexus cars were rebadged Toyotas! I'm sorry, but a luxury brand that starts out as rebadged mainstream cars with more features isn't my idea of something that builds brand prestige in a positive way. The very fact that Toyota used Toyota cars as the first Lexus cars is perceived by me to be something along the lines of either "un-preparedness" or "laziness". I mean, hey, these were cars only sold in Japan. Nobody in the US or Europe will notice if we add leather, put the steering wheel on the left-hand-side, switch badges and inflate the price tag!

And before Lexus entered the North American luxury market, they studied their rivals in great detail and made sure they'd better themselves in those areas where the Germans were weak and strong. This is smart business and ensures that you're on a good playing field with your rivals, but it also means a lack of taking risks - something which to me Lexus has never done. Lexus has released car after car and thrown large marketing campaigns after it until consumers are brainwashed into thinking this car is the second coming of Christ.

Lexus to me screams RIP OFF. It's no secret that Toyota created Lexus to cash in on the luxury market. Where was the passion though? The passion of creating a nice luxury car and striving to achieve something? The only passion I see here is making money while offering the consumer a product that has no history, heritage or something someone can brag about. The Lexus slogan "The Passionate Pursuit of Perfection" is just lame BS marketing to me. Something they dreamt up to indicate that they have passion at Lexus. Yeah, right.



I guess the point I am trying to hit home is: Lexus has no history, no heritage, no involvement of any kind in motorsports, not much innovation and no global appeal. Yes, global appeal. This is another factor which I consider very important for a true luxury brand. Ask your average world citizen which "car" they would want to have (just "car", not "luxury car") and chances are they'll say Mercedes first, Rolls Royce, BMW, Volkswagen, Jaguar, heck even Cadillac. But Lexus? Most likely they've never heard of them.


So, take these things into consideration and tell me how Lexus can have more prestige than Mercedes-Benz? To me, Lexus is not even on the same level prestige-wise with companies like Skoda, Fiat, Citroen or Renault. Because those four aforementioned brands have a history of innovation, motorsport and creating amazing cars.

Classic cars also add to a brands prestige. Mercedes has hundreds of models that are known classics. Lexus? Well, aside from the original LS400...excuse me, Toyota Celsior and SC300/SC400, whoops, my bad, Toyota Soarer, there are none.

Clearly this survey reflects American attitudes, and my impression with the average American luxury consumer is that they just want a well-equipped car for a good price - something Lexus offers. Automatically this means "brand prestige" to them, but in reality brand prestige is defined through history and achivements, just like Merc1 stated. "Brand prestige has to be earned." <-- And to me Lexus hasn't earned it, at least not on the same level as Mercedes-Benz.

MOST SOPHISTOCATED? HAAAAAH HHA AH A HAHA !

The American consumer, on aggregate, is quite possibly the least sophisticated herd of cattle in the developed world. For what other reason would brands like Toyota, Honda and Nissan be able to blatantly repurpose and sell product for the sake of cache alone? Acura, Lexus and Infiniti were birthed with the knowledge that Americans care about curb appeal more than substance, and they've done rather well for themselves trading on our prejudices.

So yeah, there's something awry in the US - there always has been.

Lol I know Osna, but that doesn't stop all the professors in marketing 101 raving on about the US market. I did say 'supposedly'.

Wimmer, the name Lexus I believe was derived from 'Luxury Export for the US.

By the way - We're giving this "Luxury Institute" survey wwwaaayyyy too much credit.

The Luxury Institute, like J.D. Power and other supposedly neutral consumer evaluation entities is out to make a buck.

What if the list read:
1.Mercedes-Benz
2.BMW
3.Lexus
4.Audi
5.Etc...

That wouldn't be tremendously interesting would it? You'd say "Well thanks Luxury Institute. I could have figured that out for myself!"

But do a study like this and some people stop and listen.

I agree with everything you have said Chris

I agree .....you know I agree with you on all of this.

But the point is, all this history doesn't really matter to a lot of consumers -- the perception of prestige (contrived to a high degree through advertising and marketing) is what attracts many status-hungry customers.

Most people will simply compare the products -- an E class vs an LS (for example) ....and decide for themselves which one they prefer -- based purely on the final product. The history of Daimler-Benz is essentially an abstract concept in the minds of most consumers -- a selling point.

It is not particularly difficult to create a status symbol product ...but creating a strong culture within a brand takes a long time. This is why I have been so critical of Benz -- they have damaged their own credibility in recent times. You are so critical of Lexus ...but Daimler has adopted many of the same kinds of superficial marketing strategies ...CLK Giorgio Armani edition -- please

To keep it short, I would say in this survey people understood prestige as brand recognition/reputation and didn't look it from the history/tradition perspective.


I believe "luxus" is originally a Latin word not German. Some Lexus officials say the name of the company doesn't have any particular meaning but others support the theory which Mr. Mercedes already pointed out:

I agree with you Rob.

Most people don't know, don't care about the history behind MB. They go to the dealer, try the car, seat in it, and buy the one they preferred or the one with the best quality/price ratio.

Thing is, they have to compare the cars, so to try comparable cars. This is where the prestige comes in the game: Lexus needs prestige, so that a MB customer will go to BMW, Audi, Cadillac, AND LEXUS to compare these cars. If he don't think to Lexus, it's useless. So this prestige is only here to attract a MB, Audi, BMW customer to the Lexus dealer.

But this is not the kind of prestige based on passion, innovation, motorsport, history, brand philosophy and principles.
This is the kind of prestige that involves leather and electronics, chrome on the bumper and rear camera, big price and attractive marketing.

In fact, the prestige of Lexus works on somebody only looking for an executive car. On a true car enthusiast, who knows about cars, who wants to know more and who is really interested by all this, Lexus usually don't appeal. Because they have no substance, only marketing.

So I fully understand the result of the survey. I disagree with it, but I understand it. Lexus usually don't want to attract the real car enthusiast, they want to attract the average premium customer who only wants a reliable and luxurious way of moving himself. For this customer, the appeal of Lexus is clear, and the car does the job perfectly.

This is even more obvious with the last LS: obviously the focus was on the electronic equipment, the gadgets and the shiny parts, not on the basics like the drivetrain and suspension. Even the hybrid is only there for show, as it even is less economical (and therefore not so green) than the regular 460.

BTW... more than the meaningless name, it is the logo that bothers me. A two-pointed star... it's so obviously inspired by the MB star that it becomes ridiculous.

I'm not sure that people don't care about MB's history, I think that is part of what bings some (not all) people to look at a Mercedes-Benz. They heard so much about them over the years and that is part of the allure IMO. Of course they don't know the details of MB's history, but IMO some or most know that MB has a great history which is a big attraction. Being so steeped in history.

Speaking of Mercedes-Benz. I dropped my car off yesterday to have all 4 wheels unbent and resurfaced. WOW, when I got the car back there is no vibration or anything and they look brand new. When my service advisor said that they look "brand new" I thought it was the usual BS, but he was actually telling the truth.

I had a new C300 4Matic Sport as a loaner, it has only 400 miles on it. Much better car than the W203 IMO. Only thing though it isn't as sporty, even though I had the sport version. The W204 rides and feels like a real Mercedes, heavy and solid, but not that spritely and not as agile as the W203 C230 Sport I had a few weeks ago. The interior is much more grown up and solidly constructed, but the plastics are a little on the chintzy side, mainly the big piece that covers the dash, the interior needs something else to break up the sea of plastic and a slightly higher grade of plastic IMO. That said the rest is pure MB. Solid, quiet and the MB feel is there in spades. Unlike the W203.

Lastly, as I turned the corner of the block where the dealer is an older women blew by me in a SLR of all things. She had to be like 60 years old. When I walked into the service area the techs and the writers were just talking about her having just left. She was an older lady that owns about 12-15 Mercedes-Benzes!!! I was like ***. She also has some 1959 model that I was unfamiliar with that they were talking about.

Wrong thread I know....


M