Exactly what I mean by immature and child-like. Seriously monster... take a look at yourself , what you're writing and how you're expressing yourself.

"she looks like she needs a bit of exercising" ....what has her being a bit overweight got to do with the topic? bloody sad case! Act your age mate!

I will follow the forum guidelines and refrain myself from getting involved in this. It is perfectly fine to express your opinion about the subject matter; however this is not the place to express your opinion of another forum member.

Yeh you're right monster. My apologies for the personal criticism.


The anti-Toyota/Lexus sentiment which is highly prevalent in this forum just gets a bit much for me at times. I guess I too need to show restrain and composure and get over the level of bias against Toyota/Lexusas here.


Again monster, I apologise for my previous couple of posts.

But Beemer, Lexus/Toyota often goes beyond the boundaries of 'creative' marketing. The Hybrid range of vehicles they have produced is a case in point.

Its ok. now back to some normal discussion. I just applied for a graduate engineering position with Toyota Tech Australia so I have absolutely no issue with Toyota cars, however I do think their marketing strategy can be better.

Since you are studying business and marketing you probably know more than I do, so what do you think you would do or change if you are in charge of Toyota's marketing department?

Good luck with that position, Monster.

Keep it clean guys. We're allowed to express our opinions on these boards, even if they're negative. As long as the discussions are civilized and members post reasons to back up their claims.

I personally have no real beef with Toyota or Lexus, but what really annoys me is how people overrate Lexus so much and claim that they have achieved so much in so little time (neglecting to mention Toyota's "unlimited" cash reserves, shared parts with Toyota's (therefore cheaper R&D etc.)) and other factors. Also, Toyota cars tend to be reliable and well-built: and that's it. Compare a Toyota product to those of their competitors in other criteria such as handling, comfort etc. and Toyotas usually perform average.

And yep, I absolutely hate how Lexus markets their hybrids. No offense to Toyota / Lexus fans but this is bordering on false marketing.

Honestly? ... not a single thing.

Of course to us more informed members of the public, we can raise our hand and say 'err, you're not quite telling the absolute truth there Mr. Toyota' but for the vast vast vast majority of the public (and remember Toyota's target market is the average Jack or Jill) they are highly susceptible to Toyota's marketing efforts and have next-to-no reason to even doubt Toyota because the car company has built such a positive, trustworthy, reliable rapport with customers and the general public.

As much as the 'truth' behind Toyota's marketing intiatives may infuriate you, their marketing has been HIGHLY successful... just look at the sales figures and overall market share that Toyota posses in many markets.




I'm not sure what beef people have with Lexus' way of marketing their hybrid range. I completely understand that the exaggerate a lot, and make it sound like their hybrid technology was developed by the hand of god, but I mean come on, that's what marketing is all about. Now, if they had tried to use the same level of exaggeration and hype in relation to a new petrol engine they developed, then it definitely wouldn't work, and people wouldn't be so encapsulated in all the hype they were trying to create.... BUT... because hybrid engine technology is something new which Toyota brought into the car market, they are simply trying to get as much out of their advantageous position in the market. Afterall, they are a business.. and as I said, their reputation in general is held in such high regard, it's fairly easy for Toyota to preach whatever marketing hype they want to, as long as it's not blatant lying. Like I said, I agree that they're making it sound like their hybrid range is a pure miracle brought to life...but you can't blame them for that because they're out to sell cars and ultimately make money doing it.

Also, I really don't get all this slandering of the Lexus hybrids. Yeh sure they don't give the impressive gas mileage figures that the Prius is able to achieve, but you have to remember that the Prius is a fully-fledged hybrid vehicle, whereas the Lexs hybrids are more like after-thought add-ons....BUT... what cannot be discounted or slandered against is the fact that eventhough the Lexus hybrids don't return impressive mileage like the Prius, they still DO return better mileage than a comparable petrol engine. Of course in Europe, diesel technology is strong competition for Toyota's hybrid technology, but focusing on the United States, diesel tech' is nearly non-existant (slowing catching on), so all this hybrid hype is very much justified and very clever as a marketing programme to garner more sales. The sheer success of the Prius and even the Camry hybrid makes it an almost foolish decision not to offer the 'add-on' type hyrbid engines to the Lexus range. Currently the world is caught up in all this 'going green' mumbo-jumbo, so it's pure common sense for Toyota/Lexus to offer these 'add on' Lexus hybrids even if they aren't the god-given miracle engines that Lexus make them out to be in all their advertisements. All that over-exaggeration is to be expected, ..and the reason why I get so frustrated when educated members on this forum begin to criticise and go-off ranting about Toyota/Lexus and their advertising is because I hope that because we all here are educated enough about the motor industry to realise that this sort of over-exaggeration and hollow-hype is just part of the industry, and honestly, it's just part of doing business in general. I can understand if the average Joe feels cheated once they realise that their Lexus hybrid ain't the miracle that Lexus portray's it to be, but for us folk on here, we should know what the world of business can be like, especially in the motor industry.


I agree to a certain degree... but as I said, you have to remember that outside of Europe which views diesel as their saviour from high petroleum prices, in other parts of the world, hybrid technology is usually the only other feasible alternative to purchase... so it's no suprise at all that Toyota/Lexus are trying to milk out every single sales they can, and at the same time try to build a level of reputation, excitement and even a sense of misconception within the general public to make them think even MORE favourable of Toyota, especially in terms of the company's efforts to be greener. I'm very business minded so I really don't care much for all this 'green' movement going on, and you could say I'm even a little cold-hearted in terms of ethics....BUT, what I've come to learn is that VAST majority of consumers are the opposite... so Toyota is giving the vast majority of the public what they want, or creating a product (hybrid cars) which the vast majority of the public will view in a very high regard.
So in simple, why not exaggerate your hybrid engine technology to the n-th degree if the vast majority of people are going to believe every word you say? ...afterall, that's what marketing's all about.

The thing about diesels is that they also give you great overall gas mileage and are now considered "fun to drive". Your typical hybrid is only efficient in the urban environment. Once you go out into the rural areas, the gasoline engine takes over and it has to lump around that heavy electric engine and batteries. This affects fuel economy - and not in a good way.


Well said. The vast majority of people are easily convinced by marketing it seems, any kind of marketing. Yet there are a few people out there who use their brains and they see through this.

In all honesty I would rather see Lexus develop a good diesel engine, because then they can really claim that they're offering a fuel efficient product. And with todays clean diesels there shouldn't be too much of a problem overcoming the diesel stigma in certain parts of the world. Mercedes managed to sell some E320 CDI's in Japan for example - more than expected. This is noteworthy considering how anti-diesel the Japanese are when it comes to passenger cars. In fact that's the reason the Japanese focused on hybrids: combining their favorite gasoline engines with an electric motor. Their hybrids are however only efficient in an urban setting. I guess it varies from place to place. In Japan and America where most Lexus hybrid owners probably live in the big cities, it makes sense.


I agree, you have to take advantage of people's stupidity in every way possible. I'm just wondering why these people can't figure it out for themselves that there is absolutely no way the Lexus LS600h or an RX400h for example is going to be economical once you leave the city. Big heavy cars + overpowered gas-guzzling gasoline engines + heavy electric motor and batteries = good fuel economy outside the city. Huh?

Agreed.
At this stage in hybrid technology, the vehicle isn't exactly fun to drive, or sporty, or agile in any way, so that is definitely a BIG plus for diesels, because it pretty much means you're driving the same type of car you've always driven, just the engine is a whole lot cleaner and efficient. I do have faith in Toyota being able to address this issue in a few years by creating hybrid vehicles which have a sporty feel to them (probably begin this phase with a hybrid supercar to try and INSTANTLY dispell all this talk of hybrids being slow, cumbersome, and un-agile cars).




BINGO!
Just stop and think for a second... where do the vast majority of people live and work? They live in/or close-to cities and they mostly work in cities. So it's very clear that for most people a Prius with its outstanding city mileage would be more than ideal, because you can't exactly do a whole lot of 'fun' driving in and around cities any way.



Fair enough... once on the highway the Toyota hybrids still perform just a touch better than their pertrol equivalent (eg: compare the highway mileage of a Camry hybrid with a normal 4-cyl. Camry, the hybrid still performs better on Hwy Mileage)...but of course on the highway these hybrids get surpassed by diesel engines. But on the other hand, most people do City driving, so compare a Prius hybrid against a diesel in City conditions and the diesel will get its butt kicked by the hybrid's secondary electric-motor system.

So it kind of balances out in the end, except for the fact that Prius-style hybrids will always have lower CO2 emissions than diesels.. so in terms of true 'green-ness', the Toyota Prius-style of hybrid engines are more enviro' friendly.
But if I were in the market for a new car, I would seriously consider a diesel more so than I would a hybrid due to the limited variety of hybrids at this time.



I certainly wouldn't put it down to 'stupidity', just a blind faith. Imagine if Kia or even Tata came out and said "we've developed a super-efficient hybrid engine which we will be launching soon throughout our models!". Would you honestly believe them whole-heartedly? I certainly wouldn't. I'd be very skeptical.... BUT.. with Toyota, they've created such a rock-solid reputation within the general public, that people believe all this ultra-hype about hyrbids without asking questions or doing a bit of research on their own. People simply have no reason to doubt Toyota because of the way they conduct themselves. They don't go around with negative campaigns saying 'you should choose our hybrid engines because the diesel engines the German's are creating are just crap no matter what they try to tell you!". They have an unbelievable level of respect from the public. Even those people who do not own a Toyota still very quickly and clearly know what Toyota stands for...so it's no suprise at all that Toyota is able to preach about hybrids being the future of green cars without the public sitting there and saying 'hey, hold on a sec, what other forms of efficient engines are there on the market and how do hybrids compare to them?'.

So yeh, it's not stupidity per se.. it's all the hard work Toyota has put in over their ENTIRE history in gaining the public's trust and respect which has allowed them to say whatever they want to (as long as it's on a topic which the public like to hear about, eg: green technology, very good pricing, reliability, fuel efficiency, and now they are even promoting their styling -- which I have to admit I'm a bit of a fan of now, love the Camry w/ sports kit in white!!).

Simply put, every single mainstream car company would absolutely envy Toyota's reputation, market position, strengths, knowledge and productivity in the motor industry. As a company, I have as much respect for them as I do BMW AG.

Just about a year or so ago I was biased against Lexus and Toyota. I always classed Lexus vehicles as a clear step lower than the German 3, and I viewed Toyota is just the average man's car, nothing special...just boring and simple. But now, after putting all this irrational biased aside and having a more open-mind on the issue, I've come to really appreciate and applaud what Toyota has been able to achieve as a whole. They're an absolutely incredible company in how they go about their business, and in how they view their customers (car owners). As a result, I'm a BIG fan of Toyota in NASCAR (not F1, BMW's still #1 for me in there )!!