German Car Zone

I think we will just have to agree to disagree. The CLS is the trendsetter, for the premium car segment. That it came after the P5, Alfa, Bugatti, Mazda, and Saturn leads me to think it did not set the trend for the automotive industry as a whole. Quite clearly, the CLS is not the originator; they must have drawn on something prior to this, and there were examples in abundance to influence them.
And yes, I do see a strong resemblance between the Panamera and the Bugatti.
Another concept that could pass for a 4-door coupe is the Chrysler Chronos:

The CLS was first to production of the concept in the luxury class. Secondly though it wasn't outright first, the CLS has shown the way for this type of vehicle with nearly all of the other European luxury brands planning on something similar (BMW, Audi, Porsche, Aston-Martin) or a direct copy, VW. The CLS did the same for this segment as the original SLK's hardtop did for the convertible/roadster segment. The hardtop had been done before Mercedes, but Mercedes clearly brought it back to life in 1996 and the entire market has gone that way since. Same thing with the CLS and its followers. Same thing with Airmatic. Mercedes and others had done air suspensions before, but after the W220 everyone else now offers a similar system, Bentley, Jaguar, Audi, and VW. All of them now offer air suspension of some sort. BMW in the only one left that doesn't in the class.

A POS Saturn clearly didn't start anything and concept cars are a dime a dozen, and they almost never get produced. There is no getting around the fact that the CLS started all of this at Porsche, BMW, Audi, VW and Aston-Martin. That is the trend right there.

M

As I already said, I agree with this.

Do you know for a fact that MB did not look at the Saturn, Mazda, Bugatti and within inside their own brand Chrysler? No. Nobody here knows, and even if MB did, do you think they'd admit it? Fact of the matter is, automakers draw their influences from all over the place, and not even purely within the automotive world. I don't think it's accurate to say that simply because something isn't successful at something, it therefore didn't start anything.
Think of it like this: In MB's entire 100+ year history, did they have a 4-door coupe before? No, and in their advertising, they pretty much admit this. They only introduce the CLS 2 years after Mazda did with the RX8, and a mere 13 months after Saturn. Coincidence?
The same can be said for the retractable hardtop: In MB's entire history, how many did they have before the '98 SLK? Did they have one in recent times before the 1995-1996 Mitsubishi 3000GT Spyder?

In the entire automotive world, the modern trend clearly started before the CLS.

No of course not. I do know that Mazda, Saturn and Bugatti don't compete with Mercedes and they would have no reason to look at them. If you aren't a success (Saturn) and no one is copying or even trying to compete with what you've done then you haven't really "started" anything. You can't start anything if no one even acknowledges it. That is the point here, the CLS got the ball rolling and immediately inspired the most prestigous names in the business to openly say they want a similar vehicle. Saturn, Mazda and Bugatti did not. Bugatti (?) couldn't be more irrelevant here. Now because MB and Chrysler were joined at the time MB could have gotten the idea from within that union, but the final product's looks/styling doesn't support that either.


Yeah it would be for the most part because I seriously doubt they could have thrown the CLS together in 13 months and again Mazda and Saturn don't carry any weight at any German luxury car maker. The Saturn isn't the same type of vehicle to begin with neither is the Mazda, they're both coupe with a swing out panels, not proper doors like the CLS so they aren't exactly the same thing anyway. The Aston, Audi, BMW, Porsche and VW are the same thing as the CLS, especially the VW. None of them are making a coupe with a swing out panel or mini-doors, they're making a sedan like the CLS with a swoopy roofline.


Nope they didn't and yet again that car failed miserably, it was Mercedes that made the concept work and made others take notice. The Mitsu was a disaster.


Not the current rush to make a 4-door coupe it didn't. CLS inspired BMW, VW, Aston and Porsche. Not Saturn or Mazda. One look at what they're planning and what Mazda and Saturn had on the market already clearly tells you this. I don't see any of the European makes coming out with a coupe with a swing out panel, they're all true 4-door sedans with a coupe-like roofline/shape, ala CLS.

I don't get this about the CLS and refusal for some to admit that the car started something big. Clearly Aston-Martin, Porsche, BMW, Audi and VW weren't influenced by a Saturn or Mazda otherwise they'd be doing coupes with swing out panels or mini doors, not true 4-door sedan with a coupe-like roofline.

Clearly Mercedes wasn't "first" at any of these things, that isn't the point. Point is that when they did it the rest of the market took notice, whether it was the CLS or the SLK's folding hardtop. No one else did any of these things until Mercedes did it, despite Mitsu, Mazda and Saturn having something already in place. There was no follow up or response to Mitsu or Mazda or Saturn from any of their competitors. Not one of Saturn or Mazda competitors like Ford, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Subaru or any other maker of that ilk did anything similar that I know of, yet all of Mercedes' competitors are. Big difference. Heck none of them still have done the 4-door coupe thing in the Saturn or Mazda configuration have they? Heck the Saturn Ion Quad Coupe is on its last legs, so again where is the relevance? The CLS has been a hit and isn't going anywhere.

Mercedes comes with the CLS and now all the usual suspects are clamoring to do the same thing. There is no way Europe's most prestigous automakers took note of Mazda, Saturn and Mitsu to do what they're doing now. Heck the typical German-see, German-do mentality at MB/BMW/Audi and even Porsche now should tell you that right away. One does something (ML) others follow. Then another does something (Z3) and others follow. Mazda, Mitsu and Saturn ain't got nothing to do with it.

M

That is not sufficient to conclude that they don't look at them. That would be like saying since Saturn doesn't compete with the RX8, it doesn't look at Mazda (in the case of Saturn, they merely expanded on the 3-door SC Coupe from 4 years earlier).
The ending element has to look just like the influence? That would be like saying since Jaguar's rotary gear selector doesn't control functions just like iDrive and submerges flush with the console when off then therefore Jaguar took no clues from the iDrive interface.
On the other hand, neither Ferrari's 599 is not a direct competitor to Chevy's Corvette, yet both looked at that car's MRI suspension system. And surely Ferrari is premium enough.
Unless you are a part of the internal design team, you'd have no way of knowing where MB drew their inspiration.

"Thrown the CLS together in 13 months"? You sound as if they had started from scratch. No, the fundamental engineering and durability testing was largely already done. MB have massive design and computer resources at their disposal, so I have no doubt they would be efficient enough to pull it off.
Without evidence of prior engineering done on the CLS and SLK, then the automotive timeline suggests these concepts did not arrive by divine inspiration to MB. Think about it. 100+ years is one hell of a long time. Now suddenly, boom-boom. Right after other cars brought those features to market. No way can that be coincidence. If you can imagine a 120-line list, each one representing a year, and mark each line with the date of each concept (P5, EB112, Chronos, RX-8, Ion Quad Coupe, Peugeot 401/601, Skyliner, Mitsu Spyder, SLK), you'd visually see what I'm trying to say.
The Mitsubishi was a disaster because it was already too expensive and like its direct competitors (Supra, 300ZX, RX-7) was already on the road to extinction. Its failure was as an entire line overall. That does not preclude, in any logical way whatsoever, MB from looking at the concept as an influence. If the SLK had been released years before the Spyder, then yes, I'd agree wholeheartedly MB did not look to them as an influence. But that is not the case.
Also, you don't have to be a commercial success to be a trendsetter. Recall the Apple III or Apple Lisa PC. Eiger Labs MPMan F10 (first portable digital audio player; Eiger who??).


The automotive timeline suggests they didn't start something big. Merely that they were the most successful in adapting existing concepts to the premium car segment. Within this segment, yes, they are trendsetters. But you can't seriously believe the company line that they invented the "first ever 4-door coupe."
I don't get this refusal to accept that MB designers are open enough to look at other designs and concepts for inspiration.


Never ever did I say they were influenced by Saturn/Mazda. Merely that MB did not think of this idea out of the blue. But thanks for agreeing the CLS is a 4-door sedan. Cheers!

I think you don't get my point.

Of course Merc did look at Mazda, and the predecessor, even the Chrysler concepts imo.
Thing is, these cars were no trendsetter!
They are the original, but noone found them interesting enough to follow. They created no trend, no fuzz, no rush.

It is only now that the CLS is there that the trend started. Because to be a trendsetter, you need charisma, you need something more than a bare concept.

The CLS is NOT the very first.
But it IS the trendsetter. It startyed the trend, the rush. Now everybody wants a four door coupe. The Mazda or Saturn did not inspire anybody. They maybe gave an idea to Merc, but it is Merc that setted the trend and put the concept to its actual standpoint. Without the CLS, it is quite clear that Audi, BMW and VW would not have the A7, CS and Passat Coupe. These cars are directly following the trend initiated by the CLS.

They can't be said to follow the Mazda or Saturn.

No suicide-doors, small windows, low roofline, high rear-end, coupe-shape. All the inspiration of the carmakers comes directly from the CLS. Whereas the inspiration of the CLS does not come from the Mazda: shape, lines, concept, everything is fundamentally different.

Only the ground idea is the same, and it is not enough to be a trendsetter. An initiator is not always a trendsetter...

The CLS is maybe not the initiator of the four-door coupe concept, but it is clearly the trendsetter.

The SLK is not the very first with a steel roof, but it is clearly the trendsetter.

You have to differentiate these two things. History does not remember the very first, but the trendsetter, the one that marked the others, was followed, and inspired the competition. This is what the CLS is. A trendsetter.

Likewise you have no way of knowing if the opposite is true, that Mercedes looked at Mazda and Saturn (downright laughable). The end result says that the CLS' inspiration didn't come from Mazda or Saturn. The MB and those other vehicles are not even close to being similar. That speaks for itself. CLS is a sedan with a coupe-like profile and roofline, not a coupe with a swing out panel or mini-door opening. Period. Again even if Mercedes has influenced by Saturn or Mazda (which they weren't) they didn't make a competior or something in the same vein as the Mazda or Saturn. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this.

Yet Mazda and Saturn are not the influence here. To believe what you're suggesting here says that Mercedes saw the Saturn and came up with the CLS in 13 months. Concepts don't usually go from the drawing board to production that fast at Mercedes or any other company for that matter. If the window was only 13 months (your figures) there is no way a Saturn could have been the inspiration for the CLS. Neither the Mazda.


No one said that they did. Read the previous post. I said that they started and/or brought the concept to the market and actually got someone to pay attention to it. NO ONE answered Mazda or Saturn when they did their so called 4-door coupes. Not a single one of their competiors even took notice and/or tried to build something similar. Yet all of Mercedes' competitors are doing just that, building an answer to the CLS.


Why couldn't it be? Mercedes and others could have been thinking the same thing around the same time, it does happen. There is no amount of circular talk around the fact that after the CLS most of if not all of Europe's elite are rushing to bring something similar to market. This didn't happen because of no stinking Saturn or Mazda. It happened because Mercedes hit pay dirt with the CLS.


We're talking months here not many years. Mercedes took 7-10 years to develop a car back then and the basic engineering of the SLK wasn't done already. Mitsu beat MB to market with the folding hardtop and paid the price with a sub-par engineered top, to put it lightly.


How in the world do you set a trend when non one takes note or cares? Setting a trend means that you do something and other hop on the bandwagon and/or immediately follow suite. This didn't happen with Saturn, Mazda or Mitsu.

Mercedes introduced electro-hydraulic brakes and no one tried to duplicate this, so where is the trend? There wasn't one. Success is the meat of a "trend", without it your efforts are regarded as a shot in the dark. Success validates the trend.


Nonsense. If they didn't then Aston-Martin, BMW, VW, Audi and Porsche wouldn't now be developing CLS style vehicles. The fact that none of them even mentioned such products prior to the CLS says it right there. To say the CLS didn't start something big is completely ridiculous.


I believe I just stated that in a previous post.


Nope, that is a marketing slogan. What I believe is that MB was the first to give this concept some legitimacy and that they've set the standard for such a concept/vehicle.


I don't get why anyone would think that they'd look at Mazda or Saturn for anything. If another luxury maker had something similar at the time then yes, but not 1 bottom feeder (at the time, Saturn) and a sports car, nah ain't buying it. Nothing supports it anyway. Those have swing out panels, they aren't 4-door sedans with coupe rooflines.


Didn't say that they did. I said that MB was the one that gave it substance and made it a hot topic.


Never said it wasn't. Clearly it is a sedan.

M