again, the question: nobody is trying to build a sporty SUV?

Merc, you can try as much as you want to make me look like a bmw-biased fool, problem is you've just outreached yourself with that comment. Like said by other members, it's about marketing and trends. The CLS has been marketed as the first 4-door coupé, but technically the mazda RX8 was first. BUT as a trendsetter, I totally agree the CLS opened a new segment.

Now on the other hand denying the X5 set the trend for a segment of premium sports-oriëntated roadbased SUV's is just sooooo wrong. Yes, there may have been 2 other suv's, like the ML, but these are just totally differently oriëntated. It's the X5 that set the trend, it's the X5 that persuaded the other brands and it's the X5 way the other brands whent, including MB with the second generation ML. It set the example, just as the CLS did, and started the segment.

Sorry, but if you can not agree with that, IMO, you can not say you are a unbiased member of this forum. Very childish behaviour, I must say.

Now that F5, how's that going?

edit: just saw posts have been removed, my bad, I will continue with F5 as you see, please do not delete post, as I'm rather proud of it hehe

For me the X5 did not open anything.
It is like saying the 5er opened a way. This is like sayinf all new cars with something a little bit different open a way.

The X5 is nothing else than a SUV with BMW characteristics.
Every carmaker apply its characteristics to its cars. It does not open a new way, it needs more than a sporty-bias, typical of all BMW products, to open a market!

Like I said, the ML was a first attempt. So Mercedes has not been too far, so not really only onroas biased, kept some all-terrain characteristics. And was no too expensive, too luxurious. They did not want to get rid of all what made a 4x4, because they had no idea if it would be accepted, or if the prople would say "I don't buy a 4x4 not even capable to go offroad".

It is only that fact that allowed BMW to see that, in fact, people don't care of offroad and want it ot be as luxurious, expensive, well-finished as a sedan.
So the ML experiment allowed BMW to put the concept further, and to create the BMW of the 4x4, a SUV woth no offroad capacity and more expensive than a 5er.
The X5 did not create anything, it only used the ML as an example to see what was good and was not.

The ML 2 would have been like it is, so more onraod and more expensive. With or without the X5. It is only logic. And the one who try actually to make a sporty suv, are the brands marketed as sporty.

So the X5, for me, did not open any new way, only used the way created by the ML but with BMW bias. Which is normal as it is a BMW.


The CLS, on the contrary, opened a way: the stylish sedan. Not necessarily "four-door coupe", but stylish sedan. A sedan where look is more important than practicabiolity, but with 4 doors because 2 are just too short to be easy to use.

For me the Cayenne opened a way, not the X5. The Cayenne proved that Porsche, or Ferrari, or Maserati, so a super exclusive and super sporty carmaker can make a suv without loosing their image (even if it is the worst-looking product they ever made). A Porsche SUV, that is a new way. Not a BMW suv, with a sporty bias like the ML has a confort bias...

Well put, it's really just a SUV with BMW and has slightly stiffer suspension and perhaps handle a little bit better than your average SUV but it's in now way unique or anything like that. There no deal breaking characteristics which differentiates it from the ML, RR, Q5 and Cayenne.

CLS on the other hand created a new wave of four door cars with coupe shaped roof. BMW, Porsche, Audi, Aston Martin and VW are all following with their four door coupes. And there many more to come.

I don't have to try to do any such thing. You've demonstrated your hate for Mercedes over and over here. Again you've chosen to ignore what was said in a previous post. Did I say that no one is building a sporty SUV? No I didn't. I said that no one is trying to build an X5. Technically the Mercedes ML and even Lexus RX were first at being road biased SUVs. Period. All BMW did was add handling to the equation. Anyone that has been paying attion since 1998 knows that ML started the on road bised thingy with SUVs. That said it was a poor effort and had the wrong type of construction, body on frame, not a unibody like the Lexus RX and later X5. The ML tried to do it all and failed at that, but the segment for an on-road biased SUV was done by Mercedes, then Lexus then BMW, with the later coming to market with their typical sportiness. To sit here and try to pretend that X5 was some type of far reaching revelation is specious at best. You don't discover a country where people are already living.


The next generation ML didn't go the way of the X5, it still isn't nearly as sporty. The ML changed course after the Lexus RX took off in 1998, that course being in construction and build, not dynamics. The Lexus was the one that made Mercedes see that body on frame design wasn't the way to go. Now figure out a way to tell me the BMW was before that. The BMW didn't even come along until 2000.


Usually I'm not, but this BMW did all that (X5) and Mercedes did nothing (CLS) that BS is too much for anyone to stand. I know you're not going to sit here and say that anyone here is acting like a child after the things you've posted on certain Mercedes boards. Man pluuhease. Pot meet kettle, you're as biased as they come, or worse.

M

I'm sorry, I can agree with the CLS setting the trend for 4-door coupé's, but if we're going to say stuff as the first "stylish" sedan's that's just too far. Could have been a nice discussion;, but that's the kind of BS that ruins it.

yes, because it's lexus that's the trendsetter and the germans who follow, lord you really don't know what you're talking about do ya. Well I deserve it, that's for taking you of the ignore list, there ya go again

can I also just point out the worshipping of the star has really gone over the top with some members here

Exactly. Adding handling does not make you a segment originator or innovator.

M

See that is part of your problem right there. You wouldn't ever, ever admit it if BMW had to follow anyone else or if they got something wrong. I clearly don't worship the star as much as you think I do otherwise I would in no way admit that the RX humbled the ML and forced Mercedes to change course with the next ML. If Mercedes was following BMW then why isn't the current ML as sporty or even close to the X5 in sportiness?

Can I just point out the the worshipping of the propeller has really gone over the top with some members here

M

Now we know full well that the CLS wasn't the first stylish sedan. Who in the world said that? That would be trashing all the fine German sedans that came before it. To say that someone here is saying that the CLS is the first stylish sedan is again another example of reaching.

M

Please. Adding handling is EXACTLY what makes the car a new breed. EVERYBODY has been doing so since the X5, whereas it didn't happen before the X5.

The CLS on the other hand, is the exact same taxi as the E-Class, but only molded into a banana (aka, it's only visual marketing BS)