German Car Zone

warot · 01-27-2008, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

Saab has been butchered by GM beyond it being worth reviving.

And Volvo also got mangled quite a bit by Ford.

Why would they bother investing money in these firms?!

Everyone knows what a Volvo is. Plus they do still make good cars, compared to Jags for example.

Plus like Eni said, Volvo is much more marketable than Saab imo, so this company is so much more salvageable.

Ultimate Car Guy · 01-27-2008, 06:02 PM

I think BMW does need a green 4th brand, and from what we've seen and MINI and Rolls Royce, they know how to successfully build a comany from scratch and mould it to a successfull entity.

However, when it comes to acquiring an existing brand, with it's existing product range and with it's own facilities (factories, R&D, distribution network), operating at a large scale (e.g Volvo and SAAB), BMW tends to struggle. The whole Rover "English Patient" should pay testament to this.

warot · 01-27-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Car Guy

I think BMW does need a green 4th brand, and from what we've seen and MINI and Rolls Royce, they know how to successfully build a comany from scratch and mould it to a successfull entity.

However, when it comes to acquiring an existing brand, with it's existing product range and with it's own facilities (factories, R&D, distribution network), operating at a large scale (e.g Volvo and SAAB), BMW tends to struggle. The whole Rover "English Patient" should pay testament to this.

But that's what MINI and RR were... they are far from struggling. They have learnt from the Rover disaster and would do real well with Volvo imo

EnI · 01-27-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultimate Car Guy

I think BMW does need a green 4th brand, and from what we've seen and MINI and Rolls Royce, they know how to successfully build a comany from scratch and mould it to a successfull entity.

However, when it comes to acquiring an existing brand, with it's existing product range and with it's own facilities (factories, R&D, distribution network), operating at a large scale (e.g Volvo and SAAB), BMW tends to struggle. The whole Rover "English Patient" should pay testament to this.

There's a huge risk indeed. Any acquisition is a shock to an existing organizational culture of a parent company. And I'm not sure BMW are prepared to shake their establishment again.

I'm sure BMW are more interested in brand name only, not in products, facilities & labor.

Perhaps there will be a small FWD platform sharing only with some other carmaker - eg. with Volvo or Saab. Although 500k MINIs annually is an overkill - especially with such specific image MINI does posses. Therefore BMW are interested in an additional FWD brand - to gain additional 300k FWD units annually, and make a FWD platform profitable enough. Like I said: premium FWD small sedan, small wagon & a mini-van - slotted between MINI & BMW 1er would be a perfect solution. Perhaps BMW will revive Triumph or Riley after all. But then BMW Group would end up with 5 brands:

eg. Isetta (premium rear-engined RWD near-zero-emission micro-cars)
MINI (a family of niche premium FWD funky retro fun-to-drive cars)
eg. Triumph / Riley (FWD small sedan & wagon / minivan)
BMW (premium RWD-platform cars)
Rolls-Royce (ultra-luxury cars)

An overkill?

siko · 01-27-2008, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warot

Everyone knows what a Volvo is. Plus they do still make good cars, compared to Jags for example.

I know they have the name, and safety rep... but I find their quality has slipped enormously in the past few years.

My aunt had an old 10+ year-old V70 and it was great... she then sold it to buy a S60 (2 years ago) and XC90 (3 years ago) I've noticed it's no longer the same quality.

The S60 isn't that bad, but not as solid as her old wagon... and the XC90 is borderline a piece of ****, considering the money you have to dish out for one.

Volvo isn't what it used to be IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by warot

Plus like Eni said, Volvo is much more marketable than Saab imo, so this company is so much more salvageable.

Agreed... but is it worth to bother? That was my question!

warot · 01-27-2008, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

I know they have the name, and safety rep... but I find their quality has slipped enormously in the past few years.

My aunt had an old 10+ year-old V70 and it was great... she then sold it to buy a S60 (2 years ago) and XC90 (3 years ago) I've noticed it's no longer the same quality.

The S60 isn't that bad, but not as solid as her old wagon... and the XC90 is borderline a piece of ****, considering the money you have to dish out for one.

Volvo isn't what it used to be IMO.

Agreed... but is it worth to bother? That was my question!

That's quite possible. I'm not too familiar with Volvo's. My point is, it is still a good company, unlike Jag who have fallen off the face of the Earth. It's not as anonymous as some of these other companies

I definitely think that it would be worth it because it opens a whole new door for BMW if they acquire Volvo. The list that Eni listed makes pretty good sense to me and BMW Group will have a wide portolio that covers many segments.

I believe that the MINI brand is being stretched almost as far as possible already. When people think MINI, they think of the classic little car. It would be strange to have a MINI sedan for example. It needs to retain that shape that makes it so marketable. They can make this company the ultra green company as well, which would make the Isetta redundant.

Volvo would slot in between MINI and BMW. It's just that the price would have to be acceptable, which I don't think it will be.

Deutsch · 01-27-2008, 09:35 PM

I can see BMW getting real utility out of the Volvo brand; they could easily merge engineering since Volvo has a concentrated effort on developing turbocharged engines as does MINI. In addition Volvo gives them a lot more to work with especially if their aim is to increase profit by selling more cars since Volvo already has a fairly comprehensive model lineup. In contrast that would take even longer if they were to acquire Saab since it's only a 3 car range. I also don't see GM giving up the Saab brand so easily since it's far more integrated into GM chassis and component architecture than Volvo is at Ford (Volvo has a lot more autonomy). As for image; Volvo has the image as more of a "near" luxury (couple of notches above VW) automaker than a full on global luxury brand like BMW, Audi, or MB. And I'd certainly never compare it to Jaguar.

As a current Volvo owner ('03 S60 2.4T) I can speak for Volvo quality; It's pretty good. I seldom have or have had any problems whatsoever. If anything happens it's always minor, the only thing that bothers me is that the cars are absolutely NO fun to drive. BMW could easily change that and Volvo could keep another customer. As for Saab products; they're all fairly exciting, especially the X-AWD system that begs comparison with Quattro, and promises better handling than any Saab before it.

warot · 01-27-2008, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnI

BMW are still eying premium FWD brands like Volvo, Saab, Alfa Romeo, Lancia. Unfortunately same are not fore sale, and some are - but the price is too high.

Also expect - when / if ever - BMW buys such a brand that the product portfolio of such a brand would change A LOT.

A fourth brand - for green cars - is almost a reality. Expect smart-like super efficient city cars. Of course MINI BMW & RR will still getting improved EfficientDynamics solutions, but each to meet proposed strict CO2 EU standards BMW also needs a fleet of near-zero emission cars ASAP.

Just like all the other carmaker are slowly entering the micro-car segment, BMW will also enter the segment with their own brand: occupying the premium end of the segment (just like eg. smart) while models from eg. VW, Toyota, Kia, Fiat will be more reasonably priced. Yet the pricing in this segment is very tricky, and that can be quite a problem for BMW.

This fourth brand will have a special rear-engine-RWD layout just like eg. Smart, and therefore BMW are looking for a platform donor (hoping Daimler will cooperate), since the development of such platform on their own wiould be to expensive. Daimler are also interested to sell smart platform - to make smart division profitable.

Regarding the FWD premium brand - BMW are interested since MINI platform is just too expensive. To meet future BMW profit margin standard MINI should have sold at least 500k units per year. Therefore BMW are interested to acquire a FWD brand - to share development with MINI. Meaning most of the product would be sharing platform with MINI, yet the shapes would be slotted between MINI & BMW products: eg. small sedan, small classic wagon, conventional mini-van. Also possible: co-developed with other carmaker are: entry luxury FWD car to compete with eg. Lexus ES, Acura TSX etc, and a mid-sized SUV to compete with Lexus RX.

Of course BMW will only buy such a brand if the price is reasonable, and the company's organizational structure & culture is similar to the one in BMW AG. Obviously Saab or Volvo could fit in BMW AG well.

Just noticed that now. Why is the MINI platform that expensive? Because it is only limited to a few variation?