LS600hL, the world's first hybrid luxury sedan - is it all just hot air? - Page 4

There are days when you feel like you've got nothing to do.

The hours slip by so slowly it's like trying to hit a golf ball out of a sand pit. It's irritating, difficult, repetitive and worst of all, infinitely boring.

And then you get a bright spark. Let's go test...

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Benzboi_inoz

Quote:

Originally Posted by cawimmer430

The thing with Lexus is that they have no heritage and prestige in the sense of the German brands. Yet some people go as far as to compare Lexus to BMW and Mercedes from a prestige point of view.

No matter what Lexus does, the history and heritage of achievements of BMW and Mercedes cannot be beaten overnight. BMW and Mercedes for example have created legendary cars prior to World War I and II and after the Second World War II. This was the "Golden Age of Cars" and its is over and Lexus wasn't part of it.

I can respect the LS but to me the '600h is pointless and pretentious. I've heard Lexus fans claim "other cars shouldn't even be allowed on the road". Yeah, as if the LS600h is so green...

I'd rather have down-to-earth honest LS460 because I know what I am getting.

Back in the late 19th century and early 20th century, the concept of what a brand is wasn't as developed. You had Benz Cie. and the Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft and they both competed against each until they merged in 1926. In those days, the new applications for the internal combustion engine were endless and both Benz Cie. and DMG were quick to see a market for buses, trucks, vans, tractors ship- and aircraftt engines. I would go as far to say that this is someting that has enhanced the brand prestige of Benz and DMG because they were the first companies to go into these new niches (and develop new niche markets).

Let's be honest here. BMW and Mercedes made their names not only with their products but with their ventures into various niches. BMW started out as an aircraft engine manufacturer and prior to World War II began constructing automobiles and motorcycles. BMW motorcycles set many speed records before World War II. This added prestige and fame to the brand. Let's not forget their early cars or the early 1940s Mille Miglia racers. During World War II, BMW 801 radial engines powered the feared Focke-Wulf FW-190 fighter aircraft, Daimler-Benz engines the legendary Messerschmitt BF-109 series.

Lexus to me has really done nothing spectacular. Financial backing from Toyota? Come on how easy Lexus had it. They studied the American luxury market and they studied their competitors and their products before launching. This gave them an advantage which they fully exploited. Lexus also COPIED their competitors. It has often been said that the LS430 was a Mercedes W140 S-Class copy. Now I never believed this because the LS430 didn't look like a Mercedes S-Class W140 at all, but a few days ago I was at an intersection and this black "Mercedes W140 S-Class" slowly creeps by. It was, in fact, a Lexus LS430. Now I understood why people mentioned this, because the LS430 does indeed look a little W140ish from the distance.

Lexus and Toyota are experts at marketing, in some cases false and misleading articles. The UK for instance banned two Lexus and one Toyota hybrid advertisement because they were bullsh*ting the consumer about fuel economy and emissions never once mentioning that once a hybrid is out of the city, its fuel economy suffers immensely. Let's not forget that all Lexus hybrids suffer from a poor payload capacity meaning you most likely need a taxi to follow you and carry your luggage.

Lexus also claimed to have "invented" a type of PRE-SAFE safety system, which was actually being developed by Mercedes in 1997. False marketing again. Too bad people actually believe this and then claim Lexus is so great.

From a history perspective, Lexus has nothing to showcase. No participation in motorsports (except the Rolex Series, whatever that is...

), no global appeal, no classic cars. In fact the only Lexus which IMO will become a classic was the original LS400, but that's it.

What really ticks me off is when you have idiotic Toyota and Lexus fanboys claiming that "What took the Germans 100 years to achieve took Lexus only 20." Such retarded bullsh*t.

These morons are essentially comparing the beginnings to 1989. By 1989 what was left to invent or innovate? Not much. The concept of the car, how an engine works etc. was all known and child's play. Back in 1886, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built their own engines, but had to learn and understand how to refine them, how to make them reliable, how to extract more torque, how to improve fuel economy etc. In 1989 this wasn't so much an issue as the basics were known.

To me "World Car of the Year" awards mean nothing. It's all a matter of opinion. The LS is a fine car and yes, it was a contender and it did deserve to win, but that doesn't mean it's the best car in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Fiat 500 won the "European Car of the Year" award this year - and i's basically just a cute, stunning little car with a lot of appeal but technologically it's simple and unsophisticated. Again, this means nothing. Judges have emotions, like all humans.

In the end, I honestly think that the Lexus brand has reached a stage where it's becoming overrated by the press and fans alike. I've checked out all the Lexus sold in Europe, and to be honest, I was most impressed with the Lexus GS interior, which is right up there with the Audi A6 as best in class. Not even the Benz E-Class interior comes close. The IS and LS interior struck me as overrated, especially since most reviews make it sound like God himself created them. The LS interior also struck me as to "technical" meaning a lack of simple controls and elegance usually found in European luxury sedans. The RX and SC430 interior struck me as downright cheap and heavily overrated, especially the RX.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS, MERCEDES-BENZ HAS THE HISTORY, PRESTIGE AND ACHIEVEMENTS TO ITS NAME. People buy their trucks, buses, luxury cars, entry-level cars for reasons associated with that name. Mercedes can afford to sell trucks, buses etc. because it's part of their heritage and past.

Either way I just wanted to bring up these points with you, John. I love arguing with you, John.

Another Top post Christian, and thank you for such a huge effort, and such interesting thoughts, facts and observations.

Oooh, I think 'argue' is too strong a word though.. heheh..debate is much nicer...

I post quite a bit on a number of forums to do with various hobbies, as well as cars, and I can tell you that this is probably one of the very best for good manners, camraderie and sensible, thoughtful, interesting discussion.

Kudos to all.. :-)

I agree with what you are saying 120%, so no 'argument' from me there.

But... heheh, isn't there always a 'but'...lol

Despite the passion with which you write, and justifiably so about the attainments and historical precedents in the automotive world brought about by Mercedes Benz, it is still a business, and history will have no qualms about seeing the company consigned to the dustheap if it doesnt turn around it's lamentable reputation garnered over the last few years for quality and reliability.

And the commensurate loss of both prestige, reputation and the huge financial losses as well. IMHO of course!

What I'm getting at here, is that IMHO the marriage with Chrysler was the biggest mistake in the history of the company, both from an image Point of view, and from the flow on cost in terms of the damage to Mercedes reputation worldwide because of the falling quality and reliabilty (surely one of THE major reasons one would contemplate buying a Benz in the first place would be unimpeachable quality and reliability - their reputation in that area used to be without peer).

Thank the Gods that the Chrysler debacle is over, but the company has obviously bleed money and is doubtless in a very weakened position because of this. They literally lost many billions in hard cash reserves because of arguably and allegedly short sighted mangement arrogance and blind mistakes IMHO; and the products accordingly bore the brunt of severe cost cutting, with falling prestige and reputation worldwide.

There are many ex-Mercedes fans & owners out there that have been burnt, and would not buy another; most sadly - at least going by anecdotal tales, some first hand, others via the internet.

I like pretty much all cars, and even when I don't (as in they don't 'do' anything for me) I pretty much respect them.

I am, and pretty much have always been a Mercedes fan, but not fanboy.

Indeed, I hope I'm not a fanboy of anything - that is, to be so obsessed with a brand as to be blind to faults etc.

I really want to see Mercedes grow and prosper. I want to see them back where they used to be - the brand that is regarded as being one of the very best, with quality and reliability second to none. And by quality, I just don't mean day to day reliability, or showroom quality, but quality of design, quality of engineering, quality of safety, quality of materials, quality of performance, ride, handling etc, etc.

Maybe that is already there; maybe the steps the company have been taking over the last few years to try and improve things are finally starting to show fruit. But overall, whilst I feel it they are almost there, it is not quite yet.

Note I say 'feel', or perhaps 'perceive' because there are so few facts published to go on when assessing cars, so by nature much of what we perceive or believe becomes very personal and subjective accordingly.

On an engineering basis, I see no factual reasons to doubt that a Lexus is every bit as good as a top tier Mercedes. Few facts are published to enable me to make any truly objective comparison.

Visual clues re the shutlines, panel gaps, attention to fine detail in the materials and fit and finish precision all favour the Lexus.

To counter that though, and for a balanced perspective, whilst I have absolutely few facts to go on, I would think/perceive/feel that ultimately the Mercedes (S Class 'vs LS Lexus) would be the materially stronger and safer car.

Things like the max loading weights etc, are pointers in this direction. But it is very hard as I say as so few truly scientific facts are published to allow one to truly assess and compare quality.

My conclusion is that whilst it is not 'me' in terms of overall styling, both exterior and interior, and from reviews probably a bit too soft in the driving experience for me, for quality, value, and superb engineering, the current LS Lexus is easily the equal of an S Class, 7 series, or A 8.

I don't think and certainly hope that is not me being a 'fanboy' of anything nor trying to bag any one brand, but just me being as objective as possible.

I certainly welcome any comments from anyone who could quote some published facts and figures as regards assesements of quality and comparison of the aforementioned vehicles.

If there is any one thing that Lexus has achieved that comes to mind, it is that it has come virtually from nowhere, to be able to take on the Germans at their own game in the top league, and to do it with arguably better quality, and better value. And in that sense it has forced the German triumvirate by virtue of competition to lift their game, which surely must benefit all of us in the long term. By removing the complacency of the Germans, it ensures a better car for all of us at the end of the day.

Thanks again for an excellent post, and debate...

Best Regards

John...

coolraoul

Lexus are clearly excellent cars, that can't be denyed.
Saying they are just big Toyota is for me stupid. It is like saying Audi are just big VW... It is sometimes technically true, but that's all, these are separate brands and there's very very few common points between a Toyota and a Lexus.

What bothers me in Lexus, is their "copycat" philosophy. They copy Mercedes' look and technology. Pre-safe, just after Mercedes. Keyless-go, just after Mercedes. And so one. Also lane assyst, just after Citroen (notice that the technology comes from Mercedes' Actros)... Surely they soon will have the infrared-cam...

But they don't innovate (except the sleep-cam, a spy in your car). They always come after, and then claims they are the first!!

Then there is their philiosphy, the spirit behinf their car. There is no "Lexus-spirit". No philosophy behind their cars.

They make a marketing-study: the prefered executive is the S-class. Let's make our version of this car. So comfort-biased, innovative, but conservative also.
The prefered premium-family car is the BM 3-Series. So let's make our version: more sporty, not as comfortable.
The most-liked Suv is the M-Class: let's go

They do rear-drive cars, front-drive cars, some comfort-biqsed, some sporty,.... No unity, no idea of the car. BMW, Mercedes, Audi have their own conception of a car, there is a strong brand-identity, a lot of common points through their entire lines. An Audi is an Audi, A BM is a BM, a Mercedes is a Mercedes.

A Lexus sometimes wants to be a Mercedes, sometimes more an Beemer... depending on the marketshare of the best concurrent...

That's why it is difficult to identify yourself with this brand.

You see, the Lexus are beatiful products. But they are just products. Cold and well-made.

A German car is a little bit more than just a product.

There is something more im it, there is an idea beneath it. That's why you can identify yourself with a brand and defend it. Lexus are not cars for enthustiastics, they are reasonable cars, if you don't want problems with your car. Less passion in it...
That's why I am a Mercedes fan.

The history of the Germans is not only made of the great cars they made in the past, the great races they won. They developped an ideal, a goal, they now have their own conception of the perfect car. Their cars are original and have a strong brand-identity.

This is not the case with Lexus. For me only the time will bring it to them... The history is not a dead word, it is a condition that makes the present how it is! The past Mercedes' explains the Mercedes' of today!

This is why Lexus does not appeal to me.

Mr. M

Benzboi_inoz - My dad's one of the Mercedes defectors. He used to drive a whole line of S-Classes, from the W126 to the W140 to the W220. He eventually switched over to the VAG empire. Very sad. I hope he'll be convinced the next car he'll get will be a Mercedes. He did like the S500, just too expensive for too little options.

coolraoul, Lexus does have a guiding principle. Their motto 'the relentless pursuit of perfection' is exactly it. I see them following it all the time. Their cars are clinically accurate in terms of panel gaps and all that. They see technical perfection as their best achievement, as much as how BMW would see sport as their core value.

Lexus is no longer the copycat brand. It had to play catch up when it was still young (mind you Lexus is barely two decades old) but now it's innovating as much as how the Germans are innovating IMO. They've the world's first 8 speed transmission in the LS. Or have you ever thought about how they've made the rear virtually a theatre by putting a speaker above the person sitting underneath? That's a really simple idea, yet a smart one. I've not seen anything similar in any German car. Don't forget too, that they are the first to release a hybrid large sedan among MB, Audi and BMW.

I do get your point of course about Lexus being a cold lifeless product. But that's not for us to say. To you, it may be lifeless. To other cultures, cold efficiency may mean perfection. And that's usually the case for Asian cultures, who wouldn't care less about the history of BMW MB or Audi, simply because they've not been exposed to those brands that long. Maybe in Europe or in the US, they've based their brand prides on the generations of Mercedes and BMWs that they've seen. In Asia, we've only seen German cars for that long. Not long enough to recognise its illustrous history. So brand cache may mean nothing here, no more than being an European car. Probably that's why Lexus flourishes here, and less so in Europe.

Merc1

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolraoul

Saying they are just big Toyota is for me stupid. It is like saying Audi are just big VW... It is sometimes technically true, but that's all, these are separate brands and there's very very few common points between a Toyota and a Lexus.

This isn't exactly true. It depends on the model Lexus we're talking about. The RX, ES, GX, and most of all LX are nothing but fancy Toyotas. The only Lexuses that don't have a direct Toyota counterpart anymore are the IS, GS and LS.

That said there is precious little that seperates a Lexus from a Toyota from a philosophy standpoint. A Toyota is boring, quiet, smooth riding, nothing to look at or drive and reliable to a fault. All a Lexus does is add better leather, real wood, and more features...and in some cases RWD. There is no way anyone here would know the difference between a loaded Avalon or a ES350 blindfolded sitting in the drivers seat.

Sure the LS is a techno wonder, but at the end of the day it doesn't drive any more authoritatively than any other Toyota product, just quieter and smoother and more powerful.

At least going from Audi to VW you get a upgrade in the drive, i.e. sportier across the board, that isn't so with Lexus.

M

coolraoul

They seek perfection, I agree. But what does mean "perfection"?
A perfect Mercedes will be different from a perfect BMW.
Because they have two different ideas of what a car should be.

Lexus does not have that idea. It just has to be perfectly engineered, but it does not mean anything about the car itself. So it sometimes is a bit sporty and not very comfortable like the IS, sometimes not like the LS, sometimes even front-drived like the ES... No unity through the line-up, see what I mean? I can't see the philosophy beneath their car.

A Mercedes will always be comfortable, relaxing and easy to drive(except the A and B which are mistakes and that I don't see like Mercedes), a BMW is always sporty-oriented, involving, pleasant. Lexus, well, sometimes yes sometimes no, there is no unity.

For the coldness, I agree. Lexus' are very Japanese cars, like Ferrari Italian or Mercedes-Audi-BMW Germans.

cawimmer430

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

Despite the passion with which you write, and justifiably so about the attainments and historical precedents in the automotive world brought about by Mercedes Benz, it is still a business, and history will have no qualms about seeing the company consigned to the dustheap if it doesnt turn around it's lamentable reputation garnered over the last few years for quality and reliability.

The poor quality days at Mercedes seem to be over. The new S-Class for instance has been remarkably reliable for such a technically advanced car. In Europe, the A and B-Classes have gotten excellent quality reviews. Basically the latest Mercedes' models have done quite well, a definite sign of improvement. Let's not forget that the problems Lexus has had don't seem to make it into the papers much - as if the media is trying to cover it up. Early on in its production cycle, the current GS suffered from engine failures and fires - but surprisingly these were never mentioned in Consumer Reports or JD Powers (Club Lexus was full of complaints). Instead, they recommend the Lexus GS (which has not won a single review) because it's so comfortable and reliable. They neglect to mention that it's trunk is small (non-existent on the GS450h), the payload capacity is a joke and the interior is very cramped. Yep, a class-leader right there! (Sarcasm intended...)

I might be paranoid, John, or crazy, but it seems to me that people like to hate on the more expensive and not so well equipped car called Mercedes-Benz. Sure, they're old news. Been around forever. Here comes Lexus, offers superb quality and fully loaded cars for thousands less! Wow, screw Mercedes-Benz... you know? That kind of attitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

What I'm getting at here, is that IMHO the marriage with Chrysler was the biggest mistake in the history of the company, both from an image Point of view, and from the flow on cost in terms of the damage to Mercedes reputation worldwide because of the falling quality and reliabilty (surely one of THE major reasons one would contemplate buying a Benz in the first place would be unimpeachable quality and reliability - their reputation in that area used to be without peer).

I don't really blame the merger with Chrysler for the drop in quality. Jürgen Schrempp is to blame in my book for promoting cost-cutting philosophies at Daimler-Benz long before the merger. Schrempp reduced budgets in two key areas critical to quality: Research & Development and actual Quality Control itself. This meant that R&D got less funding and hence had to deliver projects and innovations quicker without sufficient testing times. Quality Control it was assumed didn't need major funding since "poor quality could be detected", right? Wrong, on both accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

There are many ex-Mercedes fans & owners out there that have been burnt, and would not buy another; most sadly - at least going by anecdotal tales, some first hand, others via the internet.

A lot of people also talk a lot of "hot air". Once the news is out that their favorite or former favorite brand is back in the game, there are certainly people out there that are willing to give them a second chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

I am, and pretty much have always been a Mercedes fan, but not fanboy.

I'm like you. I like to think of myself as someone who has an appreciation and respect for all brands, but I've always been drawn to Mercedes. I do respect Toyota and Lexus, but I don't like them, especially since in my honest opinion they're being heavily overrated in many cases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

I really want to see Mercedes grow and prosper. I want to see them back where they used to be - the brand that is regarded as being one of the very best, with quality and reliability second to none. And by quality, I just don't mean day to day reliability, or showroom quality, but quality of design, quality of engineering, quality of safety, quality of materials, quality of performance, ride, handling etc, etc.

I fully agree with you here and I think it's happening right now.

I've always liked Dieter Zetsche for some reason, especially after he did an excellent job at Chrysler. I think he can work wonders at Mercedes now. He strikes me as a friendly guy with humor and a good sense of management for a business and people (motivator). Schrempp never struck me as that. Good old Schrempp just smelled like an accountant, a businessman who focused on the business yet ignored also many important aspects of that business (such as early warnings that quality had slipped). Anyway, with Zetsche doing some excellent work at Daimler-Benz, I am confident that we will see Mercedes coming back into the game strongly and giving Lexus a run for quality.

Again, I think a lot of current Lexus are heavily overrated. Lexus interiors for example are nothing special to me. They're not much different from their European competitors. Everyone always talks about how Lexus uses "better materials". Excuse me? How the hell do we know this? The company that delivers Lexus with plastic is probably the same that delivers Mercedes or Audi with plastic. The only difference is that Lexus orders theirs mostly in shiny silver - which appears more expensive looking than matt black often used by Mercedes for example. The wood in many Lexus looks "fake" or "cheaper" than the wood used on European. But who am I to judge? This is from visual perception and feel, after having spent some time in these cars at the local Toyota/Lexus dealership (which actually has Toyota's inside the Lexus showroom!). The real judges here are the chemists who can examine and test the plastics and wood in these cars and then tell us about quality...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

Maybe that is already there; maybe the steps the company have been taking over the last few years to try and improve things are finally starting to show fruit. But overall, whilst I feel it they are almost there, it is not quite yet.

Mercedes still has a very strong brand image, everywhere. Lexus is still a car that appeals to Americans for the most part and is growing very slowly globally. Globally, I think Mercedes has more to worry about from BMW and Audi, not Lexus and certainly not Cadillac, Lincoln, Acura and Infiniti or Jaguar.

I think Mercedes has excellent chances at coming back in style. If you ask the average global citizen for example which "car" he'd like to own, you can almost bet he'll say Mercedes-Benz first because it is one of the most well-known and powerful brands in the world. Lexus? Not even on the list. Furthermore Mercedes-Benz still stands for engineering, quality, safety, comfort and prestige despite the poor quality experienced. The vast majority of people still see Mercedes in this light, and let's hope it stays that way. With quality on the way up, I think it's safe to say that Mercedes is making a comeback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

On an engineering basis, I see no factual reasons to doubt that a Lexus is every bit as good as a top tier Mercedes. Few facts are published to enable me to make any truly objective comparison.

Lexus engineering might be superior to Mercedes, but Mercedes has a lot more INNOVATIONS and ACHIEVEMENTS up their sleeve than Lexus.

Lexus has really invented nothing. Toyota has always been the type of company to sit back and watch others invent stuff, then take these inventions and improve upon them. The same applies to Lexus. You know that hybrids are old news. Heck, the German Navy used hybrids as far back as 1906 when they received their first gasoline-electric submarines. It's only now that the concept has been applied to cars, and this was by Volkswagen/Audi in the mid 1980s I believe. Except there was no demand for this type of car back then. Toyota simply made hybrids available to the masses by PERFECTING this technology. Kudos to them, but they didn't invent it. I guess in the case of hybrids, Toyota must have innovated here and there to make it suitable for mass production etc. Again, kudos, but that's about it. When it comes to ground-breaking innovations that have shaped the automative world, Mercedes-Benz has always been upfront. Not Toyota and certainly not Lexus.

I don't care what those silly little Lexus marketing ads claim about the 8-speed automatic. Adding another cog to a 7-speed transmission is not innovation, it's an improvement. The same applies to the Mercedes marketing ads at the time of the 7Gtronic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

Visual clues re the shutlines, panel gaps, attention to fine detail in the materials and fit and finish precision all favour the Lexus.

Not really. The IS and LS interior I've examined in detail had large panel gaps in certain places. The first generation LS400 had an interior that looked cheaper and not as well built as the W140 S-Class it competed against. The LS430 might have had a better constructed interior than the W220 S-Class it competed against, but from a material point of view I found them both to be on the cheap side truth be told. Again, a lot of Lexus interiors are overrated IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

Things like the max loading weights etc, are pointers in this direction. But it is very hard as I say as so few truly scientific facts are published to allow one to truly assess and compare quality.

The thing about Mercedes, and you once said this yourself, John, is that they always seem to pay attention to the LAYOUT and ERGONOMICS of the car. I've mentioned to you how simple things like little enclaves in the back of the front seats allow the rear passengers more space for their legs make Mercedes an interesting company in that they pay attention to such simple, yet useful details. Generally, most Mercedes also have very high payload capacity ratings for their size. The big S550 for example can take onboard about 605 kg of extra weight: the LS460 from Lexus can barely crack 400 kg.

Also, several Lexus have poor payload capacity ratings, are tight on interior space and have confusing, almost annoying ergonomics. Yet they still receive high markings overall? Give me a break. A car with no interior space, confusing ergonomics and an absolute joke of a payload capacity get's high rankings because some dumb housewife thinks touchscreen navigation is "rad"!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

My conclusion is that whilst it is not 'me' in terms of overall styling, both exterior and interior, and from reviews probably a bit too soft in the driving experience for me, for quality, value, and superb engineering, the current LS Lexus is easily the equal of an S Class, 7 series, or A 8.

I've not driven the new LS460, but from what I've read, it's a chauffeur car. The European cars place more emphasis on "self-driving" while at the same time being also capable "chauffeur cars". I don't doubt that the LS is right up there with them though, except when it comes to sport.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

If there is any one thing that Lexus has achieved that comes to mind, it is that it has come virtually from nowhere, to be able to take on the Germans at their own game in the top league, and to do it with arguably better quality, and better value. And in that sense it has forced the German triumvirate by virtue of competition to lift their game, which surely must benefit all of us in the long term. By removing the complacency of the Germans, it ensures a better car for all of us at the end of the day.

I feel that people often overlook the important details when they make ^this^ statement.

Lexus has achieved a lot because of:

Toyota

1) Toyota could afford to inject massive amounts of cash into Lexus and setup dealer networks across the United States and Canada. The massive cash reserves Toyota had in 1989 could allow them to sell at a loss to allow them to gain market share and establish themselves. Again, the wealth of Toyota meant that Lexus cars could be better equipped and sold at a cheaper price (let's not forget the illegal trade practice Japan is practicing when they buy American Dollars by the boatload to keep their currency aritifically weak and make their products cheaper in the US). A cheaper price and better equipped cars naturally sell better.

2) Toyota studied the North American luxury market before launching Lexus. They took apart and studied competitor cars and improved and perfected certain aspects that were going to be used in their cars. They essentially copied the Mercedes S-Class and BMW 7-Series when they released the Toyota Celsior in Japan and Lexus LS400 in North America. The Mercedes S-Class never copied anything: it is the flagship of Mercedes and is supposed to be a leader in the fields of comfort, safety, technology and engineering, hence INNOVATION is needed. The original Lexus LS400 didn't feature anything new really with the exception of a couple of fancy gizmos that nobody probably needs. It was sterile copy of the S-Class, that's it. Nevertheless I actually like the design of that car and IMO it's the only Lexus that can attain "classic status" in a few decades.

3) Marketing. Cars from BMW and Mercedes basically sell themselves on name alone. Lexus couldn't do that, so they began to get on everyone's nerves (and still do) with their endless marketing of how green, comfortable, sporty (and a whole load of other rubbish) etc. they are. People soon caught on, tried a Lexus and got hooked. It also has to be said that Lexus dealers were extremely friendly and customers liked being treated like kings, something the European car dealerships didn't do to well I suppose.

So yes, basically Toyota pumped up Lexus full of cash, stole a few ideas left and right and claimed in brilliant and endless marketing campaigns of how they invented this and that. Bullsh*t, but it worked. Again, I've seen Lexus ads where they claim to have invented "PRE-SAFE", which Mercedes invented, NOT Lexus. Toyota's huge cash reserves are one of the main reasons why Lexus was so successful and still is. Everything else followed later after the brand was established.

Did Benz Cie. or Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft have wealthy backers? No. Not initially. Only after they convinced people of their products did financial backing come in the form of investors and wealthy individuals. Yet there were times when both Benz and DMG were on the brink of bankruptcy and had few backers. Yet they both successfully survived to merge in 1926 to become even more powerful.

The American consumer might feel pleased with such sterile cars from Lexus. Cars from a brand that lacks emotions, style (it's getting better), heritage, motorsport achievements etc. The European consumer in general might be a bit more passionate about cars and therefore demand more. I am speaking from observations, don't quote me on this. A few months ago I saw several reader comments in an Auto Motor und Sport magazine about the Lexus LS460. It was praised by the readers, but many commented on how the "lack of heritage and prestige" will always follow Lexus around in Europe. There will be buyers, no doubt, but if you're rich and want a luxury car, you go for the brand with the name, history, heritage, achievements etc. And Lexus is not on the list.

I agree that the addition of Lexus into the game will make German and British luxury cars better. Like they say, competition is good. But again, let's not make it sound as if Lexus is so super dooper good and can destroy the German brands if they wanted too. The German car brands will always have their appeal and buyers and with the current successful products Audi, BMW and Mercedes are releasing, their already big prestige ratings are bound to become even bigger - and Lexus will always have to play catch-up in that department. You know, Lexus might make superb cars, but they can't engineer cars with appeal: because appeal comes from history and heritage and past achievements and when you look at what BMW, Mercedes and even Audi have done, Lexus is just spanked a million times over.

cawimmer430

Quote:

Originally Posted by coolraoul

Lexus are clearly excell