I agree completely re the technology and cost of the MB heavy duty vehicles. However, they are not seen as being 'prestige' vehicles in the same vein as the cars, hence my analogy re the 'blue collar worker', and the motorcycles of BMW. No snobbery here, but just trying to use an analogy to make a POV.

I agree re the sharing of design. There are certainly aspects of that I do not like, such as the instruments and centre console of the IS250 look somewhat unbecoming and low rent IMHO, in an 'upmarket' vehicle, or in other words betraying their humble Toyota shared background.

By the same token, a four cylinder C Class engine, in an E Class Mercedes sounds like a bad idea to me also, as regards another example of part sharing. In fact, I can't understand why Mercedes insists upon using somewhat coarse four cylinder engines in the likes of the entry level C Classes - it really lets them down in terms of the refinement offered by a six cylinder power plant IMHO.

Best Regards

John..

One thing, you have to remember that the 61K price you quote here is for a stripped, SWB LS460, not a base LS460L which starts at 71K and even then it doesn't have nearly the standard equipment the S550 has. Nor does Mercedes offer a SWB S550 here to compete with the LS460. A typical LS460L is only about 10-12K less than a typical S550. A fully loaded LS460L can run 95K and a loaded S550 is about 104K or so.

M

The thing with Lexus is that they have no heritage and prestige in the sense of the German brands. Yet some people go as far as to compare Lexus to BMW and Mercedes from a prestige point of view.

No matter what Lexus does, the history and heritage of achievements of BMW and Mercedes cannot be beaten overnight. BMW and Mercedes for example have created legendary cars prior to World War I and II and after the Second World War II. This was the "Golden Age of Cars" and its is over and Lexus wasn't part of it.

I can respect the LS but to me the '600h is pointless and pretentious. I've heard Lexus fans claim "other cars shouldn't even be allowed on the road". Yeah, as if the LS600h is so green...

I'd rather have down-to-earth honest LS460 because I know what I am getting.



Back in the late 19th century and early 20th century, the concept of what a brand is wasn't as developed. You had Benz Cie. and the Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft and they both competed against each until they merged in 1926. In those days, the new applications for the internal combustion engine were endless and both Benz Cie. and DMG were quick to see a market for buses, trucks, vans, tractors ship- and aircraftt engines. I would go as far to say that this is someting that has enhanced the brand prestige of Benz and DMG because they were the first companies to go into these new niches (and develop new niche markets).

Let's be honest here. BMW and Mercedes made their names not only with their products but with their ventures into various niches. BMW started out as an aircraft engine manufacturer and prior to World War II began constructing automobiles and motorcycles. BMW motorcycles set many speed records before World War II. This added prestige and fame to the brand. Let's not forget their early cars or the early 1940s Mille Miglia racers. During World War II, BMW 801 radial engines powered the feared Focke-Wulf FW-190 fighter aircraft, Daimler-Benz engines the legendary Messerschmitt BF-109 series.

Lexus to me has really done nothing spectacular. Financial backing from Toyota? Come on how easy Lexus had it. They studied the American luxury market and they studied their competitors and their products before launching. This gave them an advantage which they fully exploited. Lexus also COPIED their competitors. It has often been said that the LS430 was a Mercedes W140 S-Class copy. Now I never believed this because the LS430 didn't look like a Mercedes S-Class W140 at all, but a few days ago I was at an intersection and this black "Mercedes W140 S-Class" slowly creeps by. It was, in fact, a Lexus LS430. Now I understood why people mentioned this, because the LS430 does indeed look a little W140ish from the distance.

Lexus and Toyota are experts at marketing, in some cases false and misleading articles. The UK for instance banned two Lexus and one Toyota hybrid advertisement because they were bullsh*ting the consumer about fuel economy and emissions never once mentioning that once a hybrid is out of the city, its fuel economy suffers immensely. Let's not forget that all Lexus hybrids suffer from a poor payload capacity meaning you most likely need a taxi to follow you and carry your luggage.

Lexus also claimed to have "invented" a type of PRE-SAFE safety system, which was actually being developed by Mercedes in 1997. False marketing again. Too bad people actually believe this and then claim Lexus is so great.

From a history perspective, Lexus has nothing to showcase. No participation in motorsports (except the Rolex Series, whatever that is... ), no global appeal, no classic cars. In fact the only Lexus which IMO will become a classic was the original LS400, but that's it.

What really ticks me off is when you have idiotic Toyota and Lexus fanboys claiming that "What took the Germans 100 years to achieve took Lexus only 20." Such retarded bullsh*t. These morons are essentially comparing the beginnings to 1989. By 1989 what was left to invent or innovate? Not much. The concept of the car, how an engine works etc. was all known and child's play. Back in 1886, Karl Benz and Gottlieb Daimler built their own engines, but had to learn and understand how to refine them, how to make them reliable, how to extract more torque, how to improve fuel economy etc. In 1989 this wasn't so much an issue as the basics were known.

To me "World Car of the Year" awards mean nothing. It's all a matter of opinion. The LS is a fine car and yes, it was a contender and it did deserve to win, but that doesn't mean it's the best car in the world. I wouldn't be surprised if the new Fiat 500 won the "European Car of the Year" award this year - and i's basically just a cute, stunning little car with a lot of appeal but technologically it's simple and unsophisticated. Again, this means nothing. Judges have emotions, like all humans.

In the end, I honestly think that the Lexus brand has reached a stage where it's becoming overrated by the press and fans alike. I've checked out all the Lexus sold in Europe, and to be honest, I was most impressed with the Lexus GS interior, which is right up there with the Audi A6 as best in class. Not even the Benz E-Class interior comes close. The IS and LS interior struck me as overrated, especially since most reviews make it sound like God himself created them. The LS interior also struck me as to "technical" meaning a lack of simple controls and elegance usually found in European luxury sedans. The RX and SC430 interior struck me as downright cheap and heavily overrated, especially the RX.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS, MERCEDES-BENZ HAS THE HISTORY, PRESTIGE AND ACHIEVEMENTS TO ITS NAME. People buy their trucks, buses, luxury cars, entry-level cars for reasons associated with that name. Mercedes can afford to sell trucks, buses etc. because it's part of their heritage and past.

Either way I just wanted to bring up these points with you, John. I love arguing with you, John.

Well get this, a fully loaded LS600hL here is cheaper than a standard S500. No wonder people go for Lexus. It's a sensible choice.

Good discussion guys.

Yikes! Why is that so?

M

No idea. Maybe it has something to do with the exchange rate.

Chris, Chris, Chris! You're waisting you're time arguing with clueless jerks in Autolies and other BS forums. Now you're so obsessed with bashing stupid fanboys that you seem to judge the whole make by them.

I don't post too much on Autolies anymore, I merely like reading the trash spoken there. I know that the people who post there are just full of crap.

There are some serious Lexus fanboys on Car and Driver, Carspin and General Internet Searches that catch my attention. I don't really argue with them but the crap they say pisses me off because A) THEY BELIEVE IT THEMSELVES and B) THE CLUELESS PEOPLE (like their friends) THEY TELL THIS TOO WILL BELIEVE IT SINCE THEY'RE HEARING IT FROM A "CAR ENTHUSIAST". That's my problem.

Plus these idiots have no respect for other car brands. I personally don't like Toyota or Lexus at all, but I can respect their achievements, especially Toyota. When you compare Lexus to BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar or even Audi, their achievements don't really compare because the brands above have a longer history and involvement in the business at times when the market situation was different etc. etc. etc.

Well, the world is full of ignorant fools. There are just as bad German car fanboys who bash every other car manufacturer including the competing German ones... I don't think you can do much of a change there.
Fanboys are known to remain loyal to their particular obsession, disregarding any factors that differ from their point of view. I don't think any normal person with reason will believe all the BS these fanboys are saying.


BTW Sorry for "spamming" your thread, James!

I saw the LS460 in Japan and I have to say the front does look a lot better IRL (the grille is larger, the shape is more rounded etc.)

I agree.

I have a weakness for these things in that I get annoyed and pissed off even though I know these fools are total losers. It just bugs me because they tell their friends etc. the same crap and if these people are as stupid as they are, they'll spread the same bullsh*t message.

And right now, Toyota and Lexus fanboys are the worst. I used to think BMW fanboys were bad, uh, no, guess again. Toyota-Lexus fanboys just took over.

It's good that we have people like Bruce, who are open-minded and objective thinkers. But for the most part, I've not met many Lexus fans who are like him.