German Car Zone

Not comparing the M5 to the LFA at all. Just saying if I want V10 power, I can get a M5 for a quarter of the price.

Ok, but I will be nice a give it 2 HOH points for engineering and performance.

The issue is you have some people who are motivated by performance and engineering with nothing else mattering. This is why people here lose their mind when I speak against the M3, Mclaren F1 and now Lexus LFA.

I personally need the car to have the complete package. I need the performance, engineering & design. If the design isn't there, I don't want it. Of course if it has the good design and bad engineering I don't want it either.

It must have the complete package to get HOH approval (Not that they need that to be successful).

Now for Lexus (Toyota) as a company, I think it's great that they finally have a supercar with good performance and will possibly get recognition for it from the automotive industry.

Yes, I do hate on Lexus because they try to be Mercedes-Benz...I have always held that against them. On the other hand, if this car went from concept to production with out changing the front to such a horrible direction then I probably would have been praising the car right along with some of you.

Then again who the heck cares about my opinion? Well let the comparisons from the Automotive journalism tell the story. Maybe Lexus might disgrace Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren, Benz and Porsche.

Now as a $80k Toyota...this car would have been perfect.

HOH, I understand your reasons to a certain extent. Looks are subjective and, of course, each opinion will differ from one individual to another. If it does not meet your expectation, there's nothing I or anybody can convince you otherwise.

Regarding, the front fascia...If it had met all the functional requisites, then I'm sure Toyota would have done whatever it could to meet the concept's look. Toyota basically threw the kitchen sink (and a buttload of money) into this singular project. However, I have a very strong feeling that those large scoops exist for aerodynamic and cooling needs. The front fascia of the concept incorporated much smaller openings that probably did not meet the engineering objectives. One of my big qualms regarding the front is where the front fenders meet the front bumpers. I wish it were a one-piece design, much like the concept, but the price for not only fabricating it but repairing such a large expanse of CFRP does not do Toyota or any potential car owner any favors.

I personally like the brutality of the front, it ain't pretty, but looks pretty darn intimidating. The entire design is form-follows-function. The design, as Centurion has stated, is not one where it's admired for it pretty lines, like the Italians. It's aggressive and commands respect, imho.

This car does it for me on many levels....powerful, sonorous engine notes, a quality cabin that'll ensconce the driver, immense level of technology/engineering, and the design. Also, the fact that it's a Toyota, they've built a reputation on dependability, I like that. Granted, here in the States, its rep has taken a hit, but I blame that on growing pains from rapid expansion. A high-performance car where I don't have to know my mechanic on a first name basis, that, to me, is pretty sweet.

Regarding the cost...yes, $400K is expensive any way you look at it, especially when a car like a Ferrari 458 can be had for $150K less. But, again, cars like Ferrari have the fabrication know-how and machinery somewhat built-in to their cost. The LFA is a true ground-up endeavor. Also, another point I'd like to make is that the upfront cost of the LFA is lofty, but what will the upkeep cost be versus the others? Yes, the LFA will be expensive to maintain, but how much more expensive down the line?

Right now, I have tons of respect for Akio Toyoda, the engineers, et al at Toyota. If this is there version of a Ferrari FXX where it's a test-bed for future application of materials and technology, I see great things for a car company I once admired. I wish them success. If only Honda could focus their future investments not only on "green"-tech, but also perfomance tech.

Maintenance will be more costly compared with the Italians, and that is well understandable given the small production of 500 units which share the financial burden of the development and expensive production for the car -- hence the 400k price tag.

It's really interesting to draw a parallel between the LF-A and the 8C which are both very exclusive cars. One offers pedestrian performance but has a startling exterior which led to three orders for every of the 500 units planned for production -- while the other has God-like specs but has empty slots in the order book and have received major critic for it's pricing. The Alfa on the other hand is blindly adored by many enthusiasts.

I'll still re-iterate my stance that the exterior design is instrumental to the success of any exotic and that's where Toyota have fallen flat with their LF-A ambitions. Just look at the 8C, bloody beautiful -- the bumper is one piece completely flush with the rest of the car -- a master piece. Let's not be too critique though, the LF-A has an engine very thirsty for air and needs an open mouth front.

Here is one reason why it costs as much as it does:

VIDEO: Weaving the Lexus LFA's carbon fiber A-pillar is mesmerizing; Autoblog. Amazing.

That video about the CF weaving process is extraordinary. Interesting comments from Autoblog readers too, about why the LFA costs so much. McLaren, etc, not weaving their own CF. The Enzo and CGT carbon tubs were not made in-house either; they came from the same supplier (ATR Composites). You'd think if designing, developing, and building your own CF components in-house were so easy, everyone should be doing it. I think I read that McLaren are targeting sales of 1000 units per year. So clearly not the same economy of scale that Lexus are dealing with here.
To expect the exclusivity of this car, that build process with the start up costs, and an $80K price tag is not realistic at all. An M5 can cost that much because it's based off of a much more mundane and mass-produced car which also serves as the basis for other vehicles. Three years ago, they had already produced 20,000 V10 engines.

For something a bit more comparable, look at the Z8.
$132k (close to $160k by today's money, adjusted for inflation)
5700 produced
V8 engine and transmission shared with the E39 M5 (20k+ units)
Driving experience not nearly on the level of a Ferrari of the time
More plasticky interior than LFA's machined aluminum bits
No CF bits, no carbon ceramic brakes

So what made the Z8 nearly twice the price of an E39 M5 despite sharing the same drivetrain? Limited production volume and that (revolutionary for BMW) aluminum chassis production process which they would use for Rolls-Royce. You can bet that if they switched to a CF tub halfway through the development process, it'd be much, much more than what it cost. Then slash the production volume to less than 1/10th...

^ Interesting!

That fact that it's a BMW and it's European. Plain and simple.

Really? I remember Ron Dennis saying that they do, indeed, produce there own CF tub...i think he said it in article or video for CarMagazine. I'll go dig for it later.

And, yes, that video of how the A-pillar is made is kind of hypnotizing.

They make their own tub. I'd be very surprised if they weaved the CF sheets themselves.

They do make their own tub, but they DON'T weave the CF used in the construction of the tub. They buy pre-made CF from difference manufacturers, kind of like how many car companies buy Brembo brakes but with their own logos, that doesn't mean they made the brakes.

Toyota on the other hand not only constructs their own CF body parts, but they weave the carbon fiber themselves as well. McLaren doesn't weave their own CF.