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Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER  I think we can all agree that the S600 is a bit excessive when compared to the A8 W12 and the 760iL. I'm not saying the S600's power output is stupid, it's just a comfortable margin over what the others are offering. I very much doubt Lexus were gunning for the S600 in terms of power output, because there's no way a V8 with whatever added to it can compete with a V12 with 2 turbos. So I think the LS600h utilised the extra horsepower and extra torque of the electric component of the hybrid engine to move that V8 engine into the V12 territory. If I were Lexus, I'd be more than happy to have the LS600h's engine performance on par with the 760iL and close to the A8 W12. Of course for those who really want power, the S600 is the most obvious choice amongst these vehicles, but as stated before, I'm sure Lexus were happy to give up that extremity of this already limited market. | I really don't understand how you can compare the LS600h to the A8 W12 and 760iL in terms of performance when it is barely faster than the LS460.
Lexus claims the LS600h is faster than the LS460 but no review has as of yet even come close to the acceleration times Lexus has claimed. Fact. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER I thought you'd be praising this ability to get instantenous torque straight off the line since many of the cars withint he MB stable are focused on straightline acceleration. This is a perfect example of how you don't really praise a good point about the Toyota/Lexus hyrbid technology just because it's on a Toyota/Lexus vehicle. I guarantee if a Mercedes vehicle implemented this 'instantenous torque' advantage you'd be championing Mercedes engineers and throwing 0-100km/h figures all over the place. | Would I? I am not a performance freak. I wouldn't want to own a performance car of any sort because it doesn't suit my driving style and I want something comfortable and efficient.
I can get quick off-the-line acceleration with a base model A160 CDI A-Class. Acceleration that is perfectly adequate for my needs too I should add.
There are a ton of Mercedes' that are very quick off the line and I have never praised them for this.  Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER Unlike the Germans where their flagship models have to be bigger and yet still manage to be faster, the point of the LS600h is simply offering similar performance and mileage as the LS460 but being able to do so with a larger car. Try and understand that....
With MB, BMW and Audi, creating the flagship models means making the car longer, creating a dedicated engine that is much more powerful than their V8s, ...BUT fuel mileage is pathetic. The LS600h: the car is longer than the LS460, acceleration is the same as the LS460, yet gas mileage also remains similar to the LS460. From your point of view this is stupid and pointless because the flagship model is supposed to trump its smaller siblings in most categories...but you gotta realise that these days the car's boundaries are created by the marketing department. We read lots of info from Scott and Eni about how the marketing department heavily influences the development of a car. With Lexus, they know their target market VERY VERY well, and I'm sure they've figured that their 50+ year old target market doesn't need twin-turbo V12 acceleration, don't need to haul a trunk-full of cargo, and are somewhat interested/concerned about the mileage their car achieves. | I wouldn't have a major problem with the LS600h if it actually delivered on its promises meaning it achieved its factory ratings. It didn't. The whole car was overhyped from the beginning but nobody seems to want to admit that, especially Lexus.
I agree that Lexus knows their target market very well and that in a way the LS600h was made for this market but it still fails on so many levels that Lexus claimed it could achieve.
Correct me if I am wrong but in my experience Lexus tends to overstate their performance and fuel economy figures while the Germans always understate. This is something I have noticed. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER You ask what warrants the difference in price between the LS460 and the LS600h. Firstly it's the size of the 600h. It's larger just like the 750i vs 760iL....and secondly it's also the prestige. Maybe over there in Europe you guys don't even consider Lexus is a luxury brand, but rather a joke...but in the market that most matters to Lexus (the US market) they most definitely have a brand identity, people actually WANT to own and drive a Lexus, and having a flagship model that has something unique in the form of a hybrid is a good differentiating feature. You can't tell me that the price difference between the S600 and the next model below it is worth it. It's not for a dollar-for-dollar comparison, but there is the prestige of owning the best S-class that Mercedes can offer. Same applies for the 600h over the 460. | The LS600h doesn't sell in Europe because its fuel economy is still considered poor. What sells well here are S320 CDI's (S350 CDI), A8 3.0 TDI's and S350's etc. An S500 is a rare sight. An S600 and the AMG's are hardly even visible in major cities where wealth is concentrated. If you look at the Auto Motor und Sport S-Class breakdown figure you'll see that the S600, S63 AMG and S65 AMG make up only 1% of the total S-Class sales in Europe. How does Lexus want to be successful here with an LS460 (poor fuel economy) or an LS600h (poor fuel economy too)? The only advantage of a hybrid is in the city, that's no secret, but is someone with an LS600h going to stay in such a driving environment all the time? Hardly. Once you're out of the city in a big and overpowered and overweight LS600h, boom, fuel economy drops.
Lexus also don't sell well here because of their horrible resale value and lack of brand prestige / identity. You can buy a Lexus, but can you sell it successfully later? Hardly. This company also has no brand prestige or heritage especially when compared to the firm they gunned for specifically: Mercedes-Benz. Someone who can afford these cars wants something with a brand name.
Also, unlike in the US, loyal Toyota customers in Europe don't go for a Lexus as soon as they're older or can afford one. They go for a European luxury car or something else because as good as a Lexus might be, it is expensive to run (fuel costs, taxes etc.) and offers ZERO economical alternatives compared to their German competition. Hybrids are also expensive here, even the Prius. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER I see, so everywhere else in the world, people don't buy an S600 or A8 W12 or 760iL or LS600h to show-off that they have money, power and status....but in America the only possible reason why people own such vehicles is to show-off.
You're right, the LS600h probably won't be used for long-trips over here in The States, because there are 2 other very feasible options:
1. Use a 4WD. No one cares about V12-twin turbo acceleration for a long-drive. In terms of fuel mileage a large 4WD would have similar figures to a car the size of a S600/760iL/A8 W12...but the 4WD would offer MUCH BETTER payload capacity... so why would you buy an S600/760iL/A8 W12 when a 4WD makes more sense for long-trips?
2. Take a plane or train. | Both the S600 and LS600h are prestige vehicles from their respective brands, right? Right. That's no secret.
My point is that the LS600h is not well suited to long distance driving or vacationing based on its poor payload capacity. Now, the target market might just use the car for representation purposes etc. and this doesn't matter, but if it does matter then the LS600h is at a disadvantage. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER I guess no one in Europe owns an S600/760iL/A8 W12 to show off what they can buy... no one could possibly be materialistic and have an ego over there right? Your reasonings a tad narrow-minded and overly-generalising. | There are many reasons why these cars are bought in the first place and getting into them here is off-topic and too diverse. But hands down, these cars are bought first and foremost for the status (badge) and the luxury they offer. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER Completely agree. Lexus develop their vehicles for the US market and therefore when it comes to the SUPER-CRITICAL factor of trunk-space and max' payload their vehicles are inferior to the competitors in Europe. In all seriousness though, I agree, the German cars cater better to the European market, whereas Lexus caters better to the US market. I guess it all simply boils down to that difference. | I'm glad we agree on something. 
And like I said, this is a problem for Lexus sedans: their SUVs do fine here in this regard but lack an economical engine alternative. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER Again, I agree that their efforts are nowhere near enough to break any ground in Europe. But I think we all know how Toyota/Lexus operate in terms of cost-vs-return. It would be too costly for them to dedicate a large amount of money to really challenge the Europeans on their home turf. Over here in the States, only very recently did Toyota make the decision to heavily invest in a specialised production facility for their SUVs/Pick-ups since they realised what a large market this was and that the American market was slowly becoming more accepting of Toyota 4WDs/Pick-ups. It's taken them nearly 3 generations of 4WDs/Pick-ups to make this big leap and lay down a lot of money to better cater to the market here. I expect that they're slowly going to do the same in Europe. They know their Lexus brand hasn't built enough identity and value to even compare to the Europeans brand heritage and so forth...so in my opinion it's a slowly and steady strategy aimed at building the Lexus brand first, and then if things start to get better in terms of brand acceptance and of course sales, then they'll produce more dedicated Lexus products for the European market. Toyota's already busy with this strategy in Europe because we see Toyota vehicles that are exclusive to Europe. It all comes down to cost-vs-return...and when it comes to Toyota they are one of the most conservative companies.
The European market is very hard to crack, especially when it comes to the luxury segment because Europeans are very patriotic of their own companies, and also because the target market for luxury vehicles look-down upon anything foreign. It's equivalent to Americans here who are 'racist' towards anything that is foreign. | The US market in my experience seems to be very easy to crack. Give the American consumer what he wants for less money and with better service and they're hooked. They change loyalities overnight - literally. I think what also helped Lexus initially in the US was the lot of aging Toyota consumers who moved up from their Avalon's and Camry's to a Lexus in 1989.
This isn't the case in Europe. We are patriotic about our cars but our car companies have also adapted their products to our needs and the rules and regulations of the EU. This is the reason why we have small but excellent luxury cars here that are laughed at in the US. Different markets, different people, different rules and regulations and different cultures.
But what is important here in Europe is brand prestige. A luxury brand has to have character and stand for something. Everyone knows the history of BMW and Mercedes and Audi here. We know what Jaguar and Lancia have achieved. We know that Citroen and Renault and Opel, despite being mainstream manufacturers have a history of offering premium cars and can still sell one in this day and age (C5/C6 / Laguna / Insignia). If Toyota tried to sell their Avalon here...big FAIL. Their Camry flopped here big time too.
Aside from a lack of brand prestige, Lexus continually refuses to adapt to the European market. No diesels, no smaller engines, no cheaper trims. Nothing. There is no shame here in Europe of driving a luxury car with cloth seats and a 4-cylinder engine. Lexus doesn't understand this. They think that by doing what they do they can magically attain bigger brand prestige than Mercedes or BMW who offer smaller engines etc. It doesn't work that way here. This might work in the US but not here. History and heritage and achievements define brand prestige here.
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Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER Agreed, if I had to lay down my money on a Lexus LS, I'd opt for the LS460...but if money wasn't a consideration, why wouldn't you opt for the LS600h (unless you pack you trunk full of junk everyday)...and I'm sure there are a good number of people where money isn't a critical factor, so owning the flagship 600h appeals to them if their heart and mind is set on owning a Lexus. | If Lexus offered an LS300d then that would be the LS for me, but they don't. I just don't see the LS600h as an economical alternative at all, especially once you're out of the city. Again, someone shopping for an S600 or even an LS600h probably doesn't care about gas mileage but view these cars as prestige cars. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER So then why do MB, Audi and BMW even bother to offer a V12....and more specifically, why does MB shove a V12 twin-turbo in their S600 if (as you say) performance isn't an important factor? Lexus definitely share this opinion of yours that those who purchase a car in this segment aren't fussed about outright power. From many reviews I've read the Lexus is a VERY smooth and somewhat 'boring' car to drive. It may be boring to the car magazine drivers who love would much prefer performance over luxury, but the 50+ year old target market absolutely love the 'boring' and super-smooth characteristics of the upper-end Lexus models (I say upper-end because the current Lexus IS is more sports-orientated than any other Lexus). | We have already established that the S600 and LS600h are the flagships of their respective companies. And this means they also need the performance to back it up. Both cars are a product of their brands that exlaim: "Because we can!". MB wants to demonstrate that it can build a smooth, yet silent and ultra powerful V12 with outrageous torque and horsepower and performance ratings and Lexus wants to do the same with the LS600h but using a different approach. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER Ha ha... now you're just trivialising this whole discussion. Again, I admit that there are some real stupid Americans around here who aren't very knowledgeable and tend to believe whatever they are told instead of making up their own minds...but you're totally naive if you believe this mindset only exists in America. There are dumb, naive, gullible people everywhere in this world....but to be honest, I doubt there are many of these gullible people who are part of the Lexus LS target market.
Also, I'll ask again, what's part of believing that the LS600h achieves better fuel economy than the S600, 760iL and A8 W12 is being gullible. It's a clear and simple FACT.. no funny marketing trick or play with numbers... it's a FACT.. so why is believing the fuel economy advantage of the LS600h is being gullible? | AGAIN: The LS600h is hardly more economical than the LS460 and its performance isn't even that impressive considering the LS460 comes very close to the performance of the LS600h. My whole reasoning tells me that I can forget about the LS600h and just go for an LS460.
That said, I don't see the LS600h as a competitor to the German V12 cars. It can be the flagship of Lexus but its performance and fuel economy figures are too close to the LS460. The S600, A6 W12 and 760iL differentiate themselves from their less powerful brothers: they're faster and get much much worse fuel economy. Hell yeah!  Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER And what problem do you have with this? There was a clear opportunity in the market, Toyota/Lexus identified this opportunity, they had the technology to meet this demand (clear to see that MB, BMW and others were well behind the eight-ball.. MB are only NOW offering a hybrid when the fuel crisis has subsided from how critical it was a year or so ago). Call it a fad or craze, but not every Tom, Dick or Harry could afford an LS600h, so that point is mute. Again, the opportunity was there, Lexus identified, they had the technology to capitalise on that opportunity in the market, and the final result is the LS600h. After that, the marketing department had the job of convincing the LS600h's target market that this car was the right car for them, especially in the (then) climate of high fuel prices and enviro-friendly cars. That's what marketing is all about...and Toyota/Lexus did a great job.....and again, this is what I'm talking about, they did something really good here and the fact that they were ahead of the competition when it came to hybrids meant they could offer an advantage over the competition BUT many of you here can't let yourselves acknowledge this good thinking and planning by Toyota/Lexus..and you most definitely won't praise them for this. | Why are the Japanese ahead in hybrid technology? Because in Japan there is a stigma against diesels. Naturally they focused on making the gasoline engine more efficient and I guess the hybrid setup worked for them. I also view the Japanese people as embracing of futuristic technology and there was probably a willingness to buy such a technology.
North America is also very anti-diesel (thankfully that's changing) so the hybrid setup would have found quick and easy acceptance in that market. Do you agree?
On the other hand, who leads in diesel technology? The Europeans. We have a history of driving diesel-powered cars here. It's an engine and an alternative people here are familiar with and trust and that's where our focus went. The best Japanese diesels come from Isuzu and Honda and they're not even close to the best German/French or even Italian diesels. Toyota is not even a major player in the diesel game here. The best diesel they currently offer is probably the V8 diesel in the new Landcruiser. The problem is, how many V8 diesel M-Classes does Mercedes sell here? How does Toyota expect such a car to sell here then? 
The Japanese also missed the boat in the mid 1990s to now with the diesel surge in Europe. You could buy a diesel engine option with almost every European car (sans sport cars) during this time but you would be hard pressed to find a diesel from any Japanese manufacturer in a passenger sedan.
Do you get what I am saying here? Different cultural aspects are at fault here in my opinion. I freely admit that the Japanese have the lead in hybrid technology and probably will have this lead for a long time. Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER I agree, I'd opt for a diesel SUV rather than a hybrid SUV....but again you're simply thinking about this in your own little world of Europe.... in America (as well as Japan) diesel is only now slowly gaining tractions as being fuel-efficient. So that's one reason why hybrid SUVs make sense over here. Secondly, SUVs aren't used much for off-roading or whatever, you see SUVs within cities......and where does the petrol+electric hybrid engine really shine? That's right, in city driving... ...and where does most of the target market for luxury car buyers reside? That's right, in the city..and where do they mostly work? That's right, in the city.... so which of these 2 alternatives makes more sense? That's right, the hyrbid. | Quote:
Originally Posted by Beemer B773ER I think Toyota/Lexus has become somewhat a victim of its own success. They pretty much created the definition of what a 'hybrid' is with the very fuel-efficient Prius. So now when people think 'hybrid' they think super fuel-efficiency. Putting a hybrid engine on an SUV like the RX, or slapping it onto a Camry engine won't result in Prius-like fuel efficiency, but what it will do is result in better fuel mileage than the non-hybrid RX or Camry. Thes hybrid RX, GS and Camry are aimed at people who live near and work in the city... so the hybrid is a clear winner there against the petrol versions.....but again, they are not going to deliver amazing fuel mileage like the Prius can.
That's why I get frustrated at many here who just say it's marketing gimmick and that SUV hybrids are 'pointless'. Yes these retro-fit hybrids (such as the RX, GS, Camry, Escalade and others) will NOT achieve amazing fuel mileage like the Prius, but compared to their non-hybrid counterparts they do provide a benefit. I will FULLY concede that the extra price of purchasing the hybrid variant will NEVER be offset by the savings in fuel cost...hence why I would never buy a brand-new hybrid...but as shown by sales, there are people who don't care about that...they still want a hybrid. There's only so much convincing that marketing can do...people still have their own minds and common-sense. I wouldn't mind owning a used Camry hybrid...but never buy it brand new due to the higher price...but as I said, I'd rather opt for moden day diesels than hybrids, but that's mainly because the cars I like (such as the BMW 3er, 5er, X5) are offered in diesel, but not in hybrid just yet. | Most of my critique of the Prius was aimed at the design and price. The design is ugly as hell but probably so because of the low coefficient of drag it achieves. It's a necessity, I realize that. I also realize that design is irrelevant to some people, especially for such a car.
Second, the price. A hybrid is expensive here in Europe. It's expensive to purchase and people don't necessarily view it as an investment. You have to understand that we keep our cars for long periods here in Europe so we want something that can be dubbed an investment. With the Prius, it could get very pricey once the batteries have to be replaced. How long that will be until that point? I don't know. But when that day comes, you need to open your wallet big time.
Other than that, I've never insulted the Prius based on fuel economy or its use as the perfect city taxi. Some of my posts probably said that there are "cooler diesel cars here" that look better, drive better and probably get the same or reasonably close fuel economy.
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05-30-2009, 02:18 PM
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