German Car Zone

when did bmw do a high reving 6l v8 with enourmous torque, that AMG copied

Will a 5 litre V8 qualify as a high revving engine albeit 1 litre short.

Total hogwash Scott. And the day a F/I M-car debuts is the day us Audi and Merc boys have our fun.

5L V8 is too common, and would be considered small bore.

Well, given that the engine is some 400 litres or what, those figures are nothing to write home about. No less, the engine itself is great

And, no, for sure that was no giveaway on what car is on tap ;-)

There's no comparison imho. What's there like three M cars on the market? I'm not sure but something tells me if Mercedes AMG was only focused on three models rather then there complete model line, BMW might not be coined the drivers car today!

400L or not, it still is 40kg lighter than the equivalent engine from M. So your little puny .25L V10 that has as much torque as a hamster running on a wheel still struggles to be lighter than the behemoth that is the M156.

Prior to the CLK63 Black Series and C63, M and AMG had very different philosophies regarding their high performance cars.

In general, here are my observations:
M division:
- high revving, lower displacement, naturally aspirated powerplants that have high HP but relatively low torque, meaning the maximum accleration occurs at higher rpm's
- generally lighter cars than the AMG equivalent
- superior suspension tuning when it comes to handling and track capability, BUT it generally comes at a cost of a much more bumpy ride on the streets
- available with manual transmission, better steering feel, better braking feel, and better weight distribution, all of which results in a superior driving pleasure/"feel"; more confidence inspiring when the car is pushed to its handling limits......this in my opinion DEFINES the M concept, which is to deliver the best driving fun and involvement
-cars are better optimized for track work, while maintaining a degree of civility for everyday driving on the streets

AMG division:
- high displacement engines +/- supercharging or turbocharging producing massive torque at relatively low rpm......this in my opinion DEFINES the AMG concept......this philosophy delivers instant/immediate access to rapid acceleration that is easily exploited with everyday driving
- suspension not tuned as aggressively such that the ride on everyday streets is generally superior/more comfortable to the M equivalent car, which results in a compromise in the handling ability
- automatic gearbox is the only option (with manual shifting mode)
- traction control/stability control which could not be completely disabled (only switched to a higher threshold before intervention).....safety took priority over complete driver control
- cars are better optimized for street performance as opposed to track performance

Since the introduction of the CLK63 Black Series and C63, AMG has tried to address the main criticism of their cars by making them more "involving" to drive and increase their handling capabilities. The result is a much more bumpy ride on the streets compared to previous AMG cars because of much stiffer suspension. With the 6.2L V8, AMG has achieved a high revving naturally aspirated concept while still retaining the relatively massive torque figures at relatively low rpm with high displacement. These newer AMG cars also have stability control systems that can be completely defeated.

The new M3 is a good example of M's direction. With the adjustable dampers, the M3 is now a more comfortable daily driver compared to the C63, while it still remains superior in the handling department. Other than that, M division has remained on course with respect to its products.

Which one is better? That depends on what you want in a performance car. For track work and "fun to drive" factor, M division is still superior (in general), but their cars' handling superiority cannot be really appreciated on everyday streets. For street driving, AMG cars' performance capabilities are still easier to exploit and enjoy.

I am not sure if I have fully understood your point Scott, but BMW didn't invent or decide on the rules of engine design. The basic rules of engine designs have been decided a long time ago, way before the M sport division was created. Every engine designers understand these rules but for various reasons they chose not to exactly follow them. What all companies are doing right now is to refine the age old concepts through technical innovations, but it isn't exactly a revolution. We are still on the verge of any major break through in engine design. I am still waiting for true revolutions such as cam-less engine drives or variable compression ratio engines.