German Car Zone

I've sat inside an LS600h at the Geneva Car Show and it was very roomy and comfortable. The seating position was very nice and felt good for your back. No complaints there.

The dashboard and door wood though looked really cheap and so did some of the materials inside the car. Obviously these things are subjective but having spent a lot of time inside an Audi A8 and W221 Mercedes S-Class I cannot see how the LS interior is "on par", because to me it isn't. Funny thing is that some reviews have said the same thing!

^ I have always understood your point of view concerning Lexus ...and I agree.

I find you a bit hard on Lexus, Christian.

IMO, Lexus are very good alternatives to the germans. They usually lack this little something, but it's only notices by real enthusiasts, which explains why they are mostly appreciated by people who don't really care about cars.

Let's face it, in countries where diesel has no meaning, what are the Lexuses? they are excellent cars with a lot of equipment and gadgets, offered to a lower price than the germans. This is what many people see.

These people don't care about MB's extraordinary history, about BMW's design principles, about Audi's cleanliness. They don't really see that Lexuses had untill now no real design, that they are very inspired by Mercedes, that some of the gadgets don't work IRL and that hybrid is not what it is said in the ads.

What they see is a car with a lot of equipments, an impeccable dealer's service, a reliability reputation. A car that is modern, luxurious, very well-build. A no-problem car.

For me, it is only the enthusiasts who see that Lexus is somehow "fake", somehow artificial, somehow too "marketed", and that the cars are often not as perfectly balanced as the Germans. They don't see the cheap materials and messy interior design in the LS, they don't feel that the Merc has much better suspensions and the Beemer a sportier ride without beeing less comfortable.

For me, Lexus is a valuable competitor. They don't appeal to me at all, but they are very strong. Often less good but the marketing is more efficient, and the hype very well done...

Image is everything in this world, and Lexus are working on it a lot! The image they are building appeals to normal people with deep pockets. Not to car lovers like MB, Audi or BMW.

Being a Lexus enthusiast, there are a number of posts in this thread that make we want to start chopping heads.

Anyway...I think the LS is still their strongest offering (as an overall car), followed by the IS. And has been mentioned, the RX is a very strong offering when it comes to sales. Shame it's such an ugly bugger.

The GS is the car that I think is the least competitive. Needs a major make-over!

1- Ls.

2- Rx.

3- Is.

In the U.S. Lexus' most competitive segment and strongest car agains the Germans is the LS460/600. For the average Joe it is the perfect car for the segment, only when it comes to the enthusiasts does the LS fall short.

Their second most competitive car/segment is the IS vs the Germans. The IS is very competitive with the 3-Series, C-Class and A4 when it comes to being a sports sedan.

Lastly the RX. While nothing to look at or drive, it does outsell the X3, X5, ML and any other German sport ute. It virtually wrote the book on the "crossover" segment.

Lexus on the other hand has several duds too, the GS, ES (a car pretty much in a segment by itself), SC and GX. The SC430 is Lexus' worst car from a competitive point of view. It gets malled to death by 6-Series, CLK and the gold standard of luxury GTs, the SL.

However the LS is what made the franchise, followed by the RX and ES.

For the non-enthusiast, a person that just wants reliable, comfortable, well made luxury transportation you can't beat Lexus.

The enthusiast who actually cares what a car looks like, drives like, and is able to appreciate (and identify) all those little nuances that a luxury car provides, now has many other (better) choices.

M

Great unbiased post of the Lexus models wimmer430.. I totally agree!

I agree completely. People see the value and gadget aspect and don't care about heritage or prestige. That's fine.

But I do. I care about heritage and prestige. Why? Because before the Japanese luxury brands came along every prestige brand had history and heritage. To me it is like an unwritten rule. That's just me. Like I said, Lexus are good cars, but I could never see myself owning one.



Again, I agree with you here. Lexus are reliable. End of story.



Exactly. Now, the LS isn't a cheap car by any means, and the interior is certainly great in terms of quality, but, the German cars make a better impression on me in terms of interior design and quality. The materials in the Audi A8 or MB S-Class look and feel more upscale than the shiny silver plastic used in the LS.



Well, the way I look at it is from a history point of view. Lexus can build on their image all they want, but Mercedes has been around longer during the days when the automobile was a new invention. Mercedes, then two different companies, Benz Cie. and Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft (and Mercedes' were Daimler cars) contributed a lot of technical, safety and engineering innovations to this industry. Participation in motorsports led to quick advances in everyday technology and participation in motorsports also built a great name for both Benz and Daimler and their products. Benz and Daimler cars have set many world speed records, within a few years (we're talking early 20th century here) they found mass appeal with the wealthy in North America, Europe, Africa and Asia.

Lexus debuted in 1989, at a time when anyone with sufficient technical experience could literally (literally) build a car. Lexus used existing technology and innovates relatively little. They have yet to contribute a major innovation to the automotive world. I don't consider their hybrids to be innovative at all, and if they are, then credit goes to Toyota, not Lexus essentially. Lexus contributions have been relatively minor. They simply offered a well-built car for relatively little money compared to the competition and with good service. Yes, this shook up the industry but these are simple things that anyone can do if they invest enough time and money into their factory and employees (quality control teams etc.).

Lexus cars lack global appeal. I once read a quote from a revered business professor who said that "For a product to be successful globally it must first be successful in its home country." Well, Lexus sales in Japan aren't anything exactly stunning. In fact Lexus was not successful in its home country but successful in the US. They were designed for Americans. Period. Back in the late 19th century and early 20th century there was no real standard for cars, so cars tended to be the toys of the wealthy and buyers in every continent had virtually the same expectations. One reason why Benz, Daimler, Rolls Royce, Horch etc. cars found appeal outside of Europe very quickly.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that Mercedes', BMW etc. aren't waiting for Lexus to catch up. They're always on the ball coming out with new and useful innovations (DiesOtto, PRE-SAFE, Efficient-Dynamics etc.) and of course participation in motorsports. And through these activities, they're building on their already extensive heritage and prestige. Technically they're "millions of years ahead" of Lexus in prestige and heritage, but sadly, the average consumer doesn't view it this way and says "stupid things" like "Lexus is more prestigeous than BMW and Mercedes".(Like in that last prestige study where Porsche placed first and Lexus second above MB and BMW. What a bunch of BS. ).







NO OFFENSE, BRUCE. Just stating how I feel and my viewpoints.

There is no right or wrong answer. All we're doing is stating are opinion!

Sorry if this is slightly off the topic, I don't know where else to post it.

I read an interveiw with Toyota designer Simon Humphries:

I’ve been involved in is restructuring the entire brand, the entire approach to design for Toyota and Lexus, and perhaps one thing I am proud of is the steps we’re taking with Lexus, a lot of which are coming to fruition now. You can now see in the high street the Lexus dealers in Japan, when they weren’t here a year ago. They started from this August. The vehicles being sold here are the first examples of the strategy that we proposed for Lexus. I think Lexus in the States over the years had a tendency to verge towards a little bit of the staid side, and we feel like we’re going to be able to bring it back to where it was originally, which was a complete alternative to the staid luxury of BMW and Mercedes Benz, and create an alternative, something that hasn’t got history, and therefore it’s an advantage.

What are the origins of the Lexus brand in fact?

The then president of Toyota laid out a challenge – “We can make a premium automobile”. The result was the LS, which was released in 1989, and although I wasn’t here at that time, the stories still go on now. The process for that was a phenomenal effort apparently: the amount of prototype vehicles made was unheard of, to get to that level in one go, basically. Usually it takes 20 or 30 years to improve your technology – design build quality, ride quality, all the rest – but that was done in one fell swoop.

But this was designed to go into the US market. Why was that? Was it too big for Japan or something?

No, originally it was intended for the US market, and that was it. I don’t think there were any ulterior motives. That was simply what the US market required at that time.

So what do you think has occasioned ‘bringing it home’ in a way?

I think it’s just the need to create Lexus as a global brand. It’s no good these days having segmented brands around the world; it only leads to difficulties. For example, we were selling some models as Lexus [in the US] but the same body type as Toyotas over here. So again it leads to difficulties in design. It’s difficult to purify design, to create a very distinct direction for something, because you’re selling the same product under two brand names, and you get an overlap. So I think one of the primary reasons was to segment Lexus from Toyota, and do that on a global scale.

Interview With Toyota Car Designer Simon Humphries :: Japan Visitor