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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-11-2008, 05:03 PM

I'm not that surprised by the result here to be honest. If you look at the Benz lineup, some of the cars that are on there are either ancient or getting old. For example, the CLK had no chance, the E class is starting to age and the TT is newer than the SLK. Not to mention that the engines are starting to age too.

On the subject of unfair comparisons, the one that stands out obviously is the R8 vs the SL. The A class vs A3 on the other hand seems fair to me because they are going to be cross shopped by SOME people. I didn't take the time to read the article, but if they compared it on sportiness rather than an everyday car, then obviously it's going to lose. So I wouldn't make too much out of this result.
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-12-2008, 07:33 AM

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Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
I have. See also AutoExpress test.




A2 was dropped, so those in the market for bottom-level prestige brands choose between A3 and A/B-Class.
It still doesn't make sense to me to compare the A-Class to the BMW 1-Series. You're comparing a FWD family hatch to a RWD sports hatch. Clearly most editors will favor the 1-Series for driving involvement. If we compare them on "family practicality", then I assume the A-Class will win since you can do a lot of funky things inside that will give you more space. This isn't really possible with the 1-Series. Heck I have a 1-Series in the family and I love it, but the trunk is very small so this means transporting bigger objects is next to impossible, since the width of the car is also pretty small meaning the rear seats can't really be used in situations like this.

This is what I mean with "funky things" by the way.













Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Sales-wise, I think also the C Class Sportcoupe is irrelevant compared to Audi A3 and MB A/B-Class, correct?
I don't quite understand you here with what you mean with sales.

Also, the C-Class Sportcoupe is a much better rival to the Audi A3 than the A or B-Classes.
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-13-2008, 03:08 AM

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Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
You're comparing a FWD family hatch to a RWD sports hatch. Clearly most editors will favor the 1-Series for driving involvement. If we compare them on "family practicality", then I assume the A-Class will win since you can do a lot of funky things inside that will give you more space.
What if they weren't comparing them solely on practicality? I haven't read the Audi vs MB article (couldn't understand it if I did ), but I won't presume to think they weren't considering both, and many other factors. Maybe they felt that the what the Audi loses in practicality, it more than makes up for in driving dynamics. Driving dynamics is something you can appreciate everyday, on every drive. Being able to load the A-Class to the max is a neat feature, but how often are you going to use it? If you use it everyday, you may be better off with another vehicle. And so, for most people in the market for "lifestyle" vehicles like the A3 or A-Class, the Audi might be the better choice.
And FWIW, the BMW 1-Series won the AutoZeitung test when compared solely against the A-Class. But when compared to the A-Class and two other hatches, it lost. But look at the total scores:
BMW 1-Series (last) - 3463 pts
MB A-Class - 3471
Opel Astra Turbo - 3554
VW Golf FSI - 3589
Mind you, this was the pre-facelift 1-Series, but even if it were the current one, would it beat the VW Golf? Probably not. It doesn't pertain to this AutoZeitung test (as AutoZeitung is transparent in their scoring), but other mags may have different standards when comparing vehicles of a certain class. For example, Supercar A may have more space and practicality than Supercar B, but in a test of supercars, how relevant is that? Especially if Supercar B does so many things one expects of a supercar, and does them much better than Supercar A.
And this perhaps ties in with that AutoExpress test you were so unhappy about: Considering only two marques are compared, these two being premium German brands, maybe they tested with more weight toward whichever one maintains those qualities most people look for in a premium German brand. Style. Quality. Luxury. Driving dynamics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
I don't quite understand you here with what you mean with sales.
Also, the C-Class Sportcoupe is a much better rival to the Audi A3 than the A or B-Classes.
What I mean is, the C-Class Sportcoupe sales are quite poor, yes? To most people in the market for niche vehicles from premium German brands, the Sportcoupe isn't even on their radar. The Sportcoupe, being based off of a segment of class one step above, is already quite different from the A3 (which draws from the lower Golf platform). And the A3 can be had solely with FWD, and it starts at prices much closer to the small MB's.
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-13-2008, 09:28 AM

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Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
What I mean is, the C-Class Sportcoupe sales are quite poor, yes? To most people in the market for niche vehicles from premium German brands, the Sportcoupe isn't even on their radar. The Sportcoupe, being based off of a segment of class one step above, is already quite different from the A3 (which draws from the lower Golf platform). And the A3 can be had solely with FWD, and it starts at prices much closer to the small MB's.
The Sportcoupe, A3 and 1-Series aren't exactly aimed at "traditional __[Insert Brand Here]__ buyers".

I know in the case of the C-Class Sportcoupe that it was most popular with young professionals who've made quick money and would like to try the Mercedes experience. Granted the C-Class Sportcoupe was never a very luxurious car, but it serves as an entry-level MB to suck in buyers and get them hooked on the brand: same deal with the A3 and 1-Series.
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-14-2008, 05:25 AM

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Originally Posted by cawimmer430 View Post
I know in the case of the C-Class Sportcoupe that it was most popular with young professionals who've made quick money and would like to try the Mercedes experience.
Well, what I was wondering was: in the entry-level premium niche market, how relevant is the C-Class Sportcoupe? In 2006, Audi sold nearly 230,000 A3's. Last year, BMW sold over 160,000 1-Series. MB sold 275,000 units of the A-Class and B-Class combined. How does the C-Class Sportcoupe compare to these figures? Is it as strong as A/B-Class? Somehow, I really doubt it. It doesn't play the price advantage as well as any of the 3 other models, relative to the cheapest version of the next class up (A4/3-Series/normal C-Class).
The C-Class Sportcoupe starts at 27,549 Euro. And this is based on the old W203, while the new W204 sedan starts at 31,089 Euro. 12.8% difference is not insignificant, but when judged against a newer, more developed chassis, the 3,540 euro difference seems well worth it. By contrast, the C-Class is 12,258 euro more than the cheapest A-Class; a very significant difference of 65%. This does seem like the easiest way to try the Mercedes experience, no?
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-14-2008, 06:29 AM

^^You're right, the SC was priced too high.
As a car, as an entry-level Benz, it is much more convincing, much better than A/B Class...but too expensive.

I think Mercedes saw that problem, and the response is that they kept the old car with a big FL, which allows them to price it much lower. So that it will be a real entry-level Benz for young people that don't like the van look of A and B!

I think this is a very good move, if the price is okay. It will become the real competitor foe A3 and 1 Series.
And honestly the new front end is awesome!
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-14-2008, 08:25 AM

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Originally Posted by coolraoul View Post
I think Mercedes saw that problem, and the response is that they kept the old car with a big FL, which allows them to price it much lower.
Yes, there's that. Plus they are moving production to Brazil, correct?
The new front end is nice. How well it works with the tall, stunted hatchback rear remains to be seen. With MB being so tight-lipped about the rear, it better be mind-blowing. I'm not thrilled with this "new CLC" thing being unveiled with much fanfare at "Fashion Week" ...maybe there's a commentary in there about aging supermodels going under the knife for each new reinvention. But maybe it will sell well. For how long is anyone's guess.
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Re: AutoZeitung: Audi vs Mercedes x 10 - 01-14-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guibo View Post
Well, what I was wondering was: in the entry-level premium niche market, how relevant is the C-Class Sportcoupe? In 2006, Audi sold nearly 230,000 A3's. Last year, BMW sold over 160,000 1-Series. MB sold 275,000 units of the A-Class and B-Class combined. How does the C-Class Sportcoupe compare to these figures? Is it as strong as A/B-Class? Somehow, I really doubt it. It doesn't play the price advantage as well as any of the 3 other models, relative to the cheapest version of the next class up (A4/3-Series/normal C-Class).
The C-Class Sportcoupe starts at 27,549 Euro. And this is based on the old W203, while the new W204 sedan starts at 31,089 Euro. 12.8% difference is not insignificant, but when judged against a newer, more developed chassis, the 3,540 euro difference seems well worth it. By contrast, the C-Class is 12,258 euro more than the cheapest A-Class; a very significant difference of 65%. This does seem like the easiest way to try the Mercedes experience, no?
The C-Class Sportcoupe wasn't a strong seller. Initially it sold well, but as it aged and cars from the competition became available it began to lag. The refresh helped and sparked new sales, but it was never going to be a massive seller a la Audi A3. Why? Price mainly. I agree that the C-Class SC was overpriced, but then again which MB isn't?

I don't know where to get the figures for sales, but I know that it never could compete with A-Class sales to begin with. Part of what makes the A-Class so popular is that it's already a "cult car". The first generation, as crappy as it was, was strangely loved by owners and its practicality made it even more popular.
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