German Car Zone

The purpose the RS5 serves is that we no longer have to compare the E92 M3 with the S5 since the Audi-fans does seem to think its not fair - for some reason. But then again there is the CSL that could be compared to the RS5. Last time around the CSL could not come and play because it was too good at the things that is awarded in this type of forum but this time Im sure that Audi has moved up positions making the CSL welcome. The RS4 should be compared to the E90 M3, when that arrives, but by that time the RS4 B7 will no longer be in production. Maybe the RS4 B8 is close by then? As of today RS4 against E92 M3 is the closest thing we get whitout massive complaint...

In reading reviews on the S5 i think one could, between the lines, find something really good. Audi seems to have numbed the S5 a bit (quite like BMW has done to the M3) in order to make way for a model above it. In an interview Audi said that they intentionally made the S5 a bit more like the typical Audi customer is used to in its behaviour than the technicians wanted - I take this as a direct positioning one step below the upcomming RS5, and a good way to make sufficient room.

Black Series feels like a move at what BMW does with their CSL:s so that comparison is obvious when it is posible.

Uhh, this question everyone's asking as to why only 420hp in the M3...

Anyone here heard of the concept of contigency?

The old S54 straight six was at the limit of its capacity and output when it maxed out in the E46 CSL.

The new 10 cylinder and 8 cylinder blocks are just the beginning of a whole new range of M Power. Isn't it obvious that such a glaringly undersquare engine is nowhere near the limit of its potential?

I'm a massive fan of both the RS4 (I'm a vociferous proponent of AWD for those of you who didn't know...) and the M3.

If you're going to measure these cars in the correct context then one needs to consider the message sent out by the manufacturer of each one of these cars.

From Audi the message is this: This is the RS4, the ultimate and final incarnation of a long-standing stalwart. A fitting swan-song for the pinnacle A4. In short the RS4 is the night-watchman for the end of the line and it's an exceptional achievement.

From BMW the message is this: This is the new M3, the beginning of a whole new take on the super sports coupe theme that's become a long standing BMW tradition. It represents the best of what's here and now as well as giving a taste of better things to come.

Perspective isn't everything, but it's a big thing...

I disagree with your position on the CSL being to good to be compared, there simple wasn't a model offered by Mercedes and Audi for comparison. That's like saying the S65 AMG is simply to good for comparison, that wouldn't be true, it's just that BMW and Audi don't offer models in that segment. I believe the chief difference in are point of views will remain that you feel that C63, RS4 and the M3 coupe make for a fair comparison, and I don't. The achievements of the M3 CSL were outstanding, but there weren't any competitive models offered by Audi or Mercedes to compare it to imo. It was a car which required you to sacrifice comfort for performance, for that kind of money there shouldn't be any compremise! If the new CSL requires the same sacrifice from it's owners, and the RS5 and CLK63 BS offer both high performance and cruise ability then what has BMW achieved?

We just have to se what happens! The CSL will probably be something like the Porsche GT3 in terms of concept - acceptable for road use just like the last one.

I think the CLK63, S5 and M3 makes a great comparison! CLK63 BS, RS4 and M3 does not. When the engine from the RS4(?) finds its way into the S5-shell the RS5 could easily replace the S5 in the comparison against CLK63 and M3. But where to put CSL and BS? Again, we have to se what happens! If my expectations are met the RS5 should absolutely outperform the E92 M3. The question is by how much and if by enough to justify piting it against the CSL instead of the regular M3. These things I do not know but i looking forward to finding out just how these six cars (S5 and RS5, CLK63 and CLK BS, M3 and M3 CSL) positions themselves against each other.

The best thing would ofcourse be if Audi and Mercedes would make something like the old CSL - I really like that type of car!

On the old CSL, no, the others did not make such a car from their A4 or C-class but then again, BMW did not make any 4WD V8 either: Different manufacturers + different philosophies = different cars.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but won't the CLK63 BS have between 440-500hp? It's bad enough that the M3 weights less then the S5 but it also has a 66hp advantage! I just don't see any justification for such a comparison.

M3 420hp
CLK63 BS 440-500hp
S5 354hp (And possible heavier then both!)

I hate that Audi doesn't offer a RS4-R or RS5-R to combat BMW's M3 CSL and Mercedes CLK63 BS but they don't! So I guess the RS5 will have to do double duty.

CLK63 BS has 507hp and cost almost 3 times more than M3 and RS4. CLK63 BS also cost more than a M6.
CLK63 BS doesnt compete with M3 or RS5, thats nonsense. Dont forget there is a "normal" CLK63 with 481 hp.

I do not think your wrong and if you got the impression that I thaugt S5 vs CLK 63 BS is a good comparision I must say that i don't.

Ordinary CLK63 has 481 PS (CLK63 Black Series have a tad over 500) and that of course that too is a bit hard to handle for both the S5 and the M3. But from what I have understood both the S5 and the M3 are more driver oriented and therefore the comparison might work, of course it would be better if the S5 had gotten the engine from the RS4.

Reason why S5 vs M3 vs CLK63 is ok by me is that its the best two of the manufacturers got at this time. Black Series is just way out there in terms of price and power.

That's true, I didn't realize it was the normal CLK63 AMG that competes with the M3 and RS5! So you see Dr. Dunkal, there's no way in the world the S5 can compete against such power! It would get murdered with a measley 354hp.

I think the M3 @ 420 ps will struggle too. But then again, there are other things then outright power to a car and that is where Audi and BMW will have to excell! Degree of enjoyment on the limit and in everyday dashes in the backroads. RS5 will, if the engine from the RS4 is used, have power on par with the M3.

So unfortunate that I don't have the time to read this right now!!! DAMN IT!!! But I will come back to this!