German Car Zone

The CLK isn't exactly "old", it's just not as sporty as the Audi or BMW offering.

This might change with the next generation CLK, although the majority of people who buy the CLK want it to be a nice comfy cruiser with some sporting pretensions.

Hey, it got the best fuel economy out of the three!

E93 came this year, Caw, tell me when CLK came to the market`?

You have to tell Rolls Royce and Bentley that cause they are still using fabric roofs.

Also i guess that means that SLK is superior to Z4 cause the first has a hard top.

well, SLK usually wins comparisons over Z4 and one of the reasons for that is the roof. So yes, hardtop seem to be an advantage.

The facelift took care of a lot of faults and complaints, but I don't think many CLK buyers complained about the lack of razor sharp handling etc. The CLK has always been a more laid back car and it does handle well for most people.

Clearly, Audi and BMW offer a sportier alternative but for those who want more luxury and comfort, the CLK is the car of choice. Magazines can compare these cars all they like and I will not be the slightest bit angry if they keep placing the CLK in last place.

RR & Bentley are different kinds of cars. Also Jaguar, Aston Martin & other exotic cars can be put in the same category.

Canvas is offered there intentionally due more vintage feeling - which is a part of brand experience by RR & Bentley & other similar brands. RR & Bentley are usually not bought for all-weather daily driving - when folding hardtop is more convenient. And a canvas by RR & Bentley is not just a regular canvas, but usually features interior cashmere cladding or some other luxurious & exotic material.

SLK - yes, it is more superior in comfort & convenience category. Most people want a cabrio / roadster that is appropriate for daily driving in every season. And metal roof is quite more comfortable (noise-resistant) & more weather-resistant (heavy rain, snow, cold, mist etc).

Why do you think BMW is heading towards folding metal roofs - despite this complicates the development & engineers have to work very hard not to compromise driving dynamics? And why do you think MB already offereng such solutions? Because customers want metal folding roofs. Just compare SLK sales vs Z4 sales, and BMW marketing have data why Z4 is lagging behind: a) too radical design, b) canvas roof. BMW are going to address both issues with E89: toning down the design, and offering a folding hardtop - while keeping notorious BMW driving dynamics & driver involvement. I hope engineers will be able to provide a good solution (E93 roof was a very successful result - so the know-how can be used in other models as well).

BMW marketing is always trying to please the customers - engineers are able to find a good solution while not compromising core BMW characteristics (superb driving dynamics & high degree of driver involvement = fun to drive). Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Eg. E64 6er cabrio was planned to have folding hardtop, but engineers didn't find appropriate solution fast enough to fit the folded roof in such small compartment. So E64 was launched with canvas roof. While by E93 the engineers have found the right solution - and this will help other BMW models to get similar roof as well.

Like I said: BMW have many aces in the sleeve for the future models coming in next few years:

* folding hardtop for 3er cabrio, new Z4, new 6er cabrio, new Z8
* DPC (modern mechatronic LSD-like system)
* Dynamic xDrive (feat. DPC & SCI)
* double-wishbone front suspension
* much enhanced ver. 2.0 iDrive
* various (multi)turbo engines (petrol & diesel)
* various additional EfficientDynamics solutions (incl Clean Diesel)
* ZSG gearbox!!!
* Active Hybrid system
* new ConnectedDrive & Entertainment solutions
* new much enhanced version of Adaptive Drive
* consolidated design (controversial elements better integrated)
* even better interior fit&finish

And I'm sure I have still missed some stuff ...

Facelift cant fix things like a new generation car does. You know what, a Volvo C30 handle well for most people too

Luxury and comfort. BMW build comfortable cars as well for most people to handle

When BMW had soft tops then hard top where meaningless , when BMW suddenly introduces a hard top in one model then suddenly hard tops are better.
This discussion reminds me numerous other discussions where turbocharging and AWD where not good for BMW untill they had to embrace those solutions.

Nice to see that BMW always stays true to it's beliefs.

Lets hope that customers don't ask for 5 wheels or cars without seats cause the resulting BMW models might turn out to be very funny.

Audi is leaving hard tops to VW Eos and Renault Megane and will continue with to offer fabric tops which are meant for upper class cars like the 6 series cabrio for example.

Yannis, then I'll have to kill you then when Audi introduces first hardtop cabrio / roadster. And that will happen sooner or later.

Mind that what holds BMW back when coming to some solutions / tech is compatibility of such tech / solution with BMW core values (superb driving dynamics + high degree of driver involvement). And costs of course.

When BMW engineers were able to produce smooth & turbolag-less turbo engine BMW offered it to their customers. Same case with lean burning direct injection. Same case with DCT gearbox (ZSG) - BMW want such gearbox to fit completely to BMW character. Same case with folding hardtops.

It was the same case with BMW SUV / SAV. And it will be same case with B-pillarless coupe. And BMW versatility vehicle (LSC / RFK). And will be the case with M7 & X5 M sometimes.

When specific solutions are engineered in a way not compromising BMW driving dynamics - then they are ready to be offered. But if the solution comprises a drive too much then it is canceled / not offered.

So in the case of canvas - in low-end (1er, Z2, MINI) models development / production costs are the reason. In RR case - the marketing is the reason (customers want luxurious vintage feeling). While in all the other models either costs or engineering problems are responsible for canvas instead of hardtop.

And I rather see BMW delaying some solutions till they perfectly fit BMW character than forcing some solutions and compromising driving dynamics.

Hardtop is way superior to canvas - under condition it doesn't compromise car's character to the intolerable degree - that being driving dynamics, design, price, or image etc.

Same case with turbo engines, DI, Hybrids, some other drivetrain solutions, electronics etc. New stuff are usually superior to old stuff - that's called progress.

The question is when to introduce such new stuff: asap regardless of reliability, costs & compatibility with product / brand character, or wait till the solution is reliable, cheap enough, and perfected & tweaked to fit that character perfectly.

Yannis, you can be sure Audi will follow with hardtops sooner or later: I'm sure Audi customers want a hardtop, and marketing dept is pushing such solution - while Audi is not able to deliver it due some reason (costs, engineering problems, etc). But competition is a nasty thing: it forces you to move forward. Same case with Z4 vs SLK. BMW was forced to find a perfect solution - and invest more R&D resources in hardtop construction for Z4 and other cars to fit BMW character - all to be competitive. And Audi will be forced to do the same.

Romantic times are over. You can play on a romantic card only in a very niche segment: eg ultra-luxury & exotics (RR, Bentley, AM, Ferrari, ...). MB, BMW, Audi , Lexus etc are not in this segment.

You mean that while VW, Renault , Ford ect. can make a retractable hard top , Audi can't? You also mean that you know that Audi consumers prefer a hard top while Audi doesn't know that?

Ok i know that you are a smart guy and can twist reality to fit BMW's decisions but that doesn't mean that i have to buy the excuses. BMW can do whatever they want with their cabrios but convincing me that what BMW is doing is for the best of the human kind is impossible.