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Controversial diffuser design deemed legal.

This is a discussion on Controversial diffuser design deemed legal. within the Formula 1 forums, part of the Other Forums category; Originally Posted by martinbo Ja and Williams died a slow, yet inexorable death after Villeneuve was their last World Champion. ...

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Old 04-21-2009, 09:06 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
Ja and Williams died a slow, yet inexorable death after Villeneuve was their last World Champion. So, once again, what's your point? Designers, teams, technology and drivers come and go. Gordon Murray was a very very successful designer and then he moved on. But I tell you what, send him a mail and tell him he's an old geezer. I'm sure he'd appreciate the criticism.

Oh, and of course, anyone knows that Murray eschewed the use of fancy electronics and driver aids to:
a) keep the weight of the F1 down
b) provide as visceral and pure driving experience as possible

...now don't even bother countering with some arbitrary history lesson. The only thing that's important is that the McLaren stands alone as the pinnacle achievement of its era and it's one of the most sought-after cars around.

But then, this isn't a discussion about the F1. What it is, is a discussion around the futility of so many arguments being put forward in this thread.


Williams died because they didn't/wouldn't/couldn't understand the importance of the manufacturers.
When the Renault top engines, big paycheck, track testing facilities and technical support were withdrawn after 97 Williams fell, just like they fell when Honda switched to McLaren in 88, just like they fell after BMW switched.
Williams always had won with the manufacturers behind them providing engines, money, technical support and even track testing facilities.

I personally see the new Nissan GT-R (not to mention the upcoming bigger brothers) as a superior technological achievement to the McLaren F1.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:54 AM   #52
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They have in the past. Group C endurance, Group B rally, the old DTM... and each time combination of spiraling costs and increasing speeds killed the series. It just ends up being a contest of who has deeper pockets till someone blinks and everyone looses interest and the whole series dies. For F1 to survive in the long run, it has to find the middle ground between free for all no holds barred technoligical peeing contest and a spec series.

And as for the 'sneeky independent' teams, they are the the reason F1 is still around. If it was just the big companies, F1 would be long dead like most other racing series focused around the big guys. Do you seriosly think likes of MB, BMW, Toyota, Honda (oops scratch the last one) are going to pour in billions for ever? At some point or the other, they will bail out. Ferrari is probably the only exception cause it is actually a profitable endeavour for them.

As I said before: the only limitation in F1 should have been the budget limit.

And then it's all up to teams how to spend all that money - either for R&D, or for drivers' fees, managers fees, fancy parties, superstar guests fees, etc. So I guess some teams would pay drivers more, some would invest more in R&D, some investing more in marketing / promotion etc. It's all up to team CEOs.

Regarding the tech - carmakers know best what tech is available, and how affordable it is. So, they shell create the tech limitations / rules by themselves. Not by FIA.

Regarding overtaking etc ... IMO tracks should be designed in a way to allow more overtaking. Geez ... Today the tracks are almost unchanged from the beginning of F1. Despite cars being much bigger & much faster.

Less track, but those which left being more sophisticated & more to contemporary F1 standards.

And stick to the markets / places where F1 is popular. In the last few years Bernie have been abandoning some traditional F1 key markets - to conquer the new ones. But (un)fortunately that doesn't work well. Eg some markets dive a da.n about F1. Or only some reach investors are interested in races, while people are not. A complete failure.

Today's F1 is completely mismanaged.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:59 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imhotep Evil
Williams died because they didn't/wouldn't/couldn't understand the importance of the manufacturers.
When the Renault top engines, big paycheck, track testing facilities and technical support were withdrawn after 97 Williams fell, just like they fell when Honda switched to McLaren in 88, just like they fell after BMW switched.
Williams always had won with the manufacturers behind them providing engines, money, technical support and even track testing facilities.

I personally see the new Nissan GT-R (not to mention the upcoming bigger brothers) as a superior technological achievement to the McLaren F1.
Ok. I concede that I agree with some of your points but not all of them. The point I want to make is that there is an inherent ebb and flow in Formula 1 that influenced, first and forement by technology and money which in turn has driven the outcome of the regulation and legislation around the sport.

[And btw, the GTR is 14 years younger than the F1 ]
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Old 04-24-2009, 10:02 AM   #54
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You're killing me boss.
LOL

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Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
Some of what you're saying is contradictory. You choose the rawer, simpler GT3 RS models over a 911 Turbo because the latter is too clinical - thus yearning for a cleaner, simpler approach to F1?
what I meant: Indy are wild, whereas F1s are nimble and have finesse, and I appreciate that finesse (since I like GT3s) but at the end you need some rawness and wilderness too..


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Another key criteria that is being disregarded is the much more diligent and consistent approach to the regulation of safety in the sport. This isn't the 1960's, there's no glory in burning to death or smashing yourself into oblivion after losing it at 400 km/h through 130R.

And that played a huge role I think. Although bad, somehow the idea that it is dangerous increased its appeal, yes a bit like the gladiators era..

Bernie and Max (rightfully) removed the thrill of danger (red flagging alot, yellow flagging all the time, and limiting cars, and dozen other new arrangements) and eliminated any trace of danger from the sport, and then they whined about the lack of appeal and tried to fix that by a sequence of changes to the rules that made the thing more complicated to follow than the stock market, meaning, if you catch the race in its middle, you have no clue who is where and you need three pages of data before enjoying what you're seeing.

But I know, in the greater sense of things, F1 is superior, by far, to other sports. and one can't wish that it be dangerous, since the safety of the drivers are far more important than how much I or anyone enjoys the race. F1 for me is about the concept of top notch sport and not entertainement (unlike what Bernie thinks). I just want Bernie to go, can't stand the chap anymore.


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