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Controversial diffuser design deemed legal.

This is a discussion on Controversial diffuser design deemed legal. within the Formula 1 forums, part of the Other Forums category; Originally Posted by martinbo You mean Ferrari or McLaren or BMW? Noooo neverrrr... A "simple racing mind" eh mike? No ...

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Old 04-15-2009, 10:53 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
You mean Ferrari or McLaren or BMW? Noooo neverrrr...
A "simple racing mind" eh mike? No such thing exists because, like it or lump it, there is nothing simple about racing. Nothing. It's a complex, multi-multi-faceted discipline and the higher the stakes the greater the will and capability to bend the rulebook to the max in order to... WIN.

Rule-bending and constant innovation are hallmarks of top-flight motorsport - especially Formula 1. Teams have been trying to push the physical, mechanical and legislative limits for as long as Dolly Parton has had implants. Remember the double-wheeled Tyrolls? Or the rapidly banned Brabham fan cars? What about Williams' amazing drive-by-wire adaptive suspension? Pushing all the limits in F1 is as real a prospect as death and taxes.

Oh, and for another thing, try not to take too much away from the modern Formula 1 driver for, just as it is in any sport, these guys are a consistent stream of improvement on average. Just watch some of the in car footage - these guys are still very talented drivers. Just as their forebears were...

But in the spirit of the "simplicity" being proffered here, here's the simplest answer: Formula 1 isn't simple.
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Old 04-15-2009, 10:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
You mean Ferrari or McLaren or BMW? Noooo neverrrr...

I'm sure the situation would be different if a gentleman's agreement was signed by teams. Now the teams only have direct obligation towards FIA , and not directly / legally to other teams.

I'm sure eg. Ferrari would not dare to cheat, or brake a rule if the team was legally liable toward other teams.

Right now a cheater only gives some extra money to FIA, and in reverse he gets the remission. Just like in pre-Lutheran times in Rom-Cath Church.

Regulation - yes, but set by the teams, not some third party which is more interested into entertainment nature of the event than into the sport event itself.
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:02 AM   #13
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This was from before the Verdict.
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Byrne: ''When you fully think out the principle of these diffusers then we will get real ground-effect cars once again.'' This would dramatically increase cornering speeds and problems when it comes to closely driving behind each other.

The OWG determined two aims: the 2009 cars are to produce less turbulence and they are too react less sensitively to the turblence from the car in front. The wide front wings, high rear wings etc. is what Byrne, Symonds and Lowe came up with.

But with the double decker diffuser the OWG sees their aims being jeopardised. According to Byrne, under the current regulations a conventional diffuser contributes around 15 % to the overall downforce. The South-African reckons the double-decker diffusers from Brawn GP, Toyota and Williams contribute 40 %. With that we're almost back to downforce figures from last year.

Byrne says it's only the beginning of a dangerous development. Toyota has already introduced a third level in their diffuser. ''Theoratically you can introduce as many levels as you want, or bring the diffuser ever more to the front in order to get higher downforce figures.'' Byrne estimates that the time gain of the controversial diffusers is already 1 second a lap.

The former Ferrari designer adds that it will again become more difficult to follow other cars: ''It's not so much about whether the turbulence gets increased by the diffusers at all. But those that have a diffuser like that are actually having a harder time trying to follow other cars.'' The reason behind this is that the double-decker diffuser needs an optimal approaching flow to work. ''If all the cars would be equipped with such a diffuser then overtaking will become more difficult again.''

If the Court of Appeal deem the double-decker diffuser legal then a costly 'arms race' will break out. ''We will see extreme rearsuspensions, only to allow the entry holes of the diffuser to be moved more and more forward. I can already imagine there being rearsuspension constructions similar to those seen in the '60's, with trailing arms that reach far to the front. That would create space for the diffuser channels.''

Apart from the double-decker diffusers not being within the spirit of the rules, according to the OWG they're also illegal when reading the letter of the law. ''It's a play of words: (the three teams came up with) a section divided in three parts only to apply holes in the vertical intersection between the floor and the reference plane. But the regulations don't allow fully enclosed holes in the vertical intersection. There's even talk (in the regulations) of continuous, non-subdivided planes in the diffuser.''

Byrne mentions a similar example: ''At Imola in 2001 holes were discovered in the diffuser of Williams' car. The FIA stewards objected against it and the team had to close the holes. Why is something, that used to be in force in the past, no longer in force today ?
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:14 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
Oh, and for another thing, try not to take too much away from the modern Formula 1 driver for, just as it is in any sport, these guys are a consistent stream of improvement on average. Just watch some of the in car footage - these guys are still very talented drivers. Just as their forebears were..

There are other racing series under FIA which can be used for pure driver duels. With standardized & unified cars. So, only driver & the team tactics decides the winner.

While F1 should be about car / tech duel.

I don't care if even monkeys are used to drive such cars.

In the past winning a team Grand Prix was more prestigious than driver's Grand Prix victory. It was all about teams, cars, tech ... today it's all about stars - the drivers. Make a star from a driver, and market him till the (bitter?) end.

I want a car / tech competition again. I don't care about overinflated drivers' egos much. I care about cars & motoring tech. That's why F1 and similar series matter to me ... It's like a Space Program - producing tech that's eventually trickled-down to every-day products. In F1 case - passenger cars.

The automotive industry desperately needs such competition again. And FIA is obstructing that. Definitely not in the name of manufacturers & drivers (customers) - but in the name of Bernie's money - making a circus out of F1.

Max is a corrupted little man . With some kinky sexual habits / preferences.

Max should go! And Bernie's ex-wife Slavica should be naughty and sell that F1-running company to that company run by the teams. And than give Bernie the money.


*****

Why FIA is considering those controversial wing OK? Because some second-league teams are using them - having an advantage - and so making the F1 races more interesting. I'm sure if BMW, Ferrari, or McLaren introduced such wing FIA would instantly ban such solution.

The smaller wings were introduced to make less turbulence, and make the overtaking easier. And now this is not a priority anymore - since the F1 circus is already interesting enough (with outsider Brown F1 team as a superpower)? That's some bad rule engineering by FIA.

Or someone still favors Ross Brown - from the Ferrari times on ... ???
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:41 AM   #15
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For the record, by no means am I advocating the legitimacy of the ground-effect diffusers on the Brawn, Toyota and Williams cars nor am I justifying the ruling coming out of the FIA. Brawn, the master spin-doctor, tactician and team-leader obviously spotted a loophole and, true to F1 form, has exploited this loophole.

What I am saying is that:
a) Formula 1 as a sport is not sustainable without the enforcement for very specific and very scientific rules and regulations
b) such is the exponential progress of a high-tech sport like Formula 1 that it, forever and a day, will have to be stringently regulated, legislated and administered by an independent sporting association.

One can't get away from the above.

As for gimp-suit Max and megalomaniac Bernie? It's all about the money...
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:56 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
^ Yeah, but be a bit less critical.

With all the technology advances and all the money(still) behind Formula 1 how would the playing field ever be moderately levelled if very specific, very scientific rules were not imposed. It'd be a frikken free for all...

Without rules Formula 1 would just be a business and not a sport as well.


The ever more restrictive rules have killed the sport of motor-racing.

Racing was created by the car manufacturers, for the car manufacturers, to develop and promote the automobile and auto industry.

As to FIA, they have no true historic legit rights over Grand Prix racing.
The great european gave FIA (more precisely AIACR as it was called before 1947) only the sanctioning of the Grand Prix formulae rules.


So what happened.

Quote:
...
Of course, the 1980 Rio meeting had in fact declared the death of Grand Prix racing as a World Championship sport and replaced it with ‘F1 racing’. It said so in the 1981 FIA Yellow Book:

GENERAL REGULATIONS
1 -- In application of the decisions taken during the FIA Rio Congress of 15th April 1980, the FISA is organising the new FIA Formula 1 World Championship from 1st January 1981. As a result, the old World Championship for Drivers is suppressed.

2 -- The new Formula 1 World Championship, which is the property of the FIA, will have 2 World Championship titles, one for Drivers and one for Constructors.


These significant lines had been Balestre’s key weapon all through 1980, as he tried to oust the FOCA from its control of Grand Prix racing, the old-school concept in which Grands Prix were the starting point, each of them negotiating invididually with their entrants, with the World Championship the mere afterthought of combining a number of prestigious races which happened to be eligible to FIA regulations which didn’t even need to be F1. The old World Championship which would be ‘suppressed’ was in fact nothing else but a collection of self-governed races appointed by the FIA to hold World Championship status, which allowed anyone else to stage an F1 race which wasn’t included in the championship.

Now though, the 1981 championship would fully be a FIA affair, as Grand Prix racing became synonymous with the F1 World Championship. All teams would have to take part in all events on the championship calendar, and the FIA would determine the rules – with each Grand Prix’s supplementary rulebook replaced by a standardised set of rules – and it would set the entry and prize monies too. ‘Non-championship’ races were to become a thing of the past as the FIA F1 World Championship events would be the only races allowed to run according to F1 regulations.
...
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Old 04-15-2009, 11:58 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnI View Post
There are other racing series under FIA which can be used for pure driver duels. With standardized & unified cars. So, only driver & the team tactics decides the winner.

While F1 should be about car / tech duel.

I don't care if even monkeys are used to drive such cars.

In the past winning a team Grand Prix was more prestigious than driver's Grand Prix victory. It was all about teams, cars, tech ... today it's all about stars - the drivers. Make a star from a driver, and market him till the (bitter?) end.

I want a car / tech competition again. I don't care about overinflated drivers' egos much. I care about cars & motoring tech. That's why F1 and similar series matter to me ... It's like a Space Program - producing tech that's eventually trickled-down to every-day products. In F1 case - passenger cars.

The automotive industry desperately needs such competition again. And FIA is obstructing that. Definitely not in the name of manufacturers & drivers (customers) - but in the name of Bernie's money - making a circus out of F1.

Max is a corrupted little man . With some kinky sexual habits / preferences.

Max should go! And Bernie's ex-wife Slavica should be naughty and sell that F1-running company to that company run by the teams. And than give Bernie the money.


*****

Why FIA is considering those controversial wing OK? Because some second-league teams are using them - having an advantage - and so making the F1 races more interesting. I'm sure if BMW, Ferrari, or McLaren introduced such wing FIA would instantly ban such solution.

The smaller wings were introduced to make less turbulence, and make the overtaking easier. And now this is not a priority anymore - since the F1 circus is already interesting enough (with outsider Brown F1 team as a superpower)? That's some bad rule engineering by FIA.

Or someone still favors Ross Brown - from the Ferrari times on ... ???


True. Hands on.
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Old 04-15-2009, 12:10 PM   #18
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Here's what De Lorenzo from autoextremist had to say about the current situation of racing.


Quote:
...
.
.
Racing has lost its mojo, period. The classic, time-honored quest of developing advanced technologies by pushing the envelope has been overwhelmed by a kaleidoscope of limitations that seem to get more oppressive at every juncture. Racing has actually devolved because of its addiction to limitations and regulations, with this relentless obsession to "level the playing field" resulting in motorized boredom, frankly, and it's absolutely killing the sport.

But how do we get around this? And what can be done to get the sport moving in a direction that will pay dividends in new excitement and new interest down the road?

The simple answer to that is that it will take a heroic combination of vision and cojones, two items that are in desperately short supply these days. It would require the powers that be in racing to stand up and put a stake in the ground and declare that "business as usual" would no longer be business as usual at all, and then set a new course for racing that would propel the sport into the 21st century.

But who could do that, really? The Bernie and Max show is clearly only about the money. Old markets "underperforming?" Then we'll just go to new markets and soak the salivating hordes until they can't pay anymore! Nice business model. And another reason why North America lacks a single Formula 1 race.

How about the France family's money, I mean, marketing machine? We all know the answer to that one, don't we? After all, this is the same racing organization that just recently switched from leaded to unleaded racing fuel, and that has converted to full-on common body template spec racing cars. I can safely say that "vision" isn't a word that's bandied about much in Daytona Beach.

And how about the American Le Mans Series? Though they've demonstrated the most willingness to embrace new technologies, until the organizers of the 24 Hours of Le Mans changes the game completely and starts over - demanding a wholesale switch to advanced propulsion specifications - then I'm afraid that series will always be a case of "wait until you see what we've got coming next year."

And that leads us to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and Tony George. As I said nine-and-one-half years ago, Tony George is the one man who could set the racing establishment on its ear. He is the one man who could declare that the 2011 Indianapolis 500 - the 100th Anniversary of the event - would be open to all comers and all propulsion ideas. He is the one man who could throw away the rule book and start over, setting the stage for an entirely new chapter in racing that would captivate racers, manufacturers and the public alike.

Unfortunately, Tony has demonstrated that he will listen to all ideas, but he will only act in the smallest of increments of change, so those racing enthusiasts longing for a new beginning, those hoping for an atmosphere at The Speedway full of blue sky notions, "why not?" ideas and wildly divergent creative solutions will just have to wait for...well, at this point, who knows how long?

Until then racing will be stuck in this holding pattern of same-old, we've always done it this way, it's all about the show, commonality is bliss mediocrity.

Not Good.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinbo View Post
Without rules Formula 1 would just be a business and not a sport as well.
Business already dominates F1. Max and Bernie are preaching tales about how cost cutting would make the sport more joyful for the smaller teams, while at dark the two men are refusing to lower the fee it cost to host an F1 race. Not only that but they erase Silverstone and Montreal to then happily write down Kuwait and Dubai using a 18 carat gold fountain pen Mohammed bin Sulayem sent as a gift.

The increase in regulations will eventually lead to Ferrari and Mclaren dropping out as the frame work doesn't allow them to exercise their expertise and resource. Rewind back to Brazil last year. Who were the people cheering? Hamilton and his team, and they got all the headlines while Ferrari who won the championship were all sobbing. A championship no longer mean anything without a WDC. It needs to be reversed or more balanced, but that can only be achieved by loosening the belt of regulations.
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Old 04-15-2009, 01:56 PM   #20
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I don't know if you guys read what Brawn said before the appeals. He basically said that last year when they were deciding on these things he brought up this issue and the bigger teams (ferrari, mclaren, etc) didn't really give a sh!t. They just ignored him, so he went ahead and developed this diffuser, and now that they are losing, the are crying like a little bitch. I think it's pretty pathetic that they had a chance to fix this a year back and didn't, but since someone else developed on their mistake, they are up in arms. This is more of an ego trip than anything else.

EDIT: Link to article on page 3.
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