German Car Zone

Here is a part of an interesting PM conversation EnI and I had some time ago.. thought I'd post it here for it's about the same topic

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Hu§eindesign:
Well if you ask for my honest opinion, then I don't think that mercedes' design is going the right way. but it looks like I'm obviously one of the minority. Seeing that people are loving the new C-class which I think that there is nothing special about, I think people will love the next E and CLK too. Judging by the images provided by Autobild, which see to be accurate, the CLK will be nice, but nothing really special IMO, while the E looks kinda boring.. oh well...
I don't know whether they can keep up with BMW. If I have to judge the BMW is the winner for me, but I look at it with different eyes than the broad mass so what I think might mean nothing.
I'll have to wait for Audi's new designs under the leadership of Egger to judge.

EnI:
Currently the mass still loves the understated Teutonic conservative design. Unfortunately. While BMW have taken a huge risk with their design strategy. Yes, some of the design executions are very clumsy - but seeing the sketches & claymodels it looks like the problem is the production. Too complicated design for tooling?

I feel BMW designs are starting to calm down a bit. We will see more restrained designs from BMW - more refined & more evolutionary. Opas & omas are still not ready for another design jump. It looks like this generation of BMW cars is a tester for the future: to find out how further the design can go.

I find BMW a great alternative to "gray" design of other car makers.

I think Bangle has great ideas, but he lacks a refined aesthetic sense for details. Sometimes a composition & coherence is missing, yet this can be done on purpose - to make design look more interesting & special. But this is a huge risk in industrial design = playing poker. Yet with Concept CS it's now sure details are back in the game - especially in the cabin (but also outside).

I'm eager to see what will the "metal origami" bring to the industry in the future.

MB: nothing spectacular. I think all their current cars will age quickly like previous Mks did. They lack some modern design component - but it's MB after all: MB should look conservative.

Audi: I think their design should be more dynamic & emotional. More Alfa Romeo-ish yet done in German way. I find current Audies too bloated. The cars look like soap bars: too rounded. Latest TT, R8 & A5 are showing some shy attempts of Audi going a bit more emotional with design - at least with coupes.

Hu§eindesign:
It's not only the problem of tooling. Ith's the fact that deisgners aren't the ones who decide which proposal should be rolling on the streets. In most cases they are people who are not open for any risks. With such people sitting on the highest administration chairs cars like the Maybach get their boring uninspired looks.
In the past, Bruno Sacco managed to present conservative designs but they were still full of innovative ideas and design elements. Peter Pfeifer seems to be over-challenged with this role. You said it right. Their cars aren't ugly. they do look nice, but they're lacking the timeless spirit of older Mercs.

BMW is lucky with its adminstration board that's willing to take risks in order to keep their pioneer/innovater role.

Audi's design is something defferent than the others'. They are emphasizing their image of "cold design". it's pretty industrial and doesn't have much in common with the emotional design that Alfa or Aston martin are representing.
You also see it in their CI, their architecture and their ad campaigns. they always concentrate on Aluminum (Space frame) and Snow (Quattro). I think it's something that Audi has reserved for itself. They built their charakter with those elements and applied it to the whole image of the marque. That's why I don't like the new A5, bacase it doesn't seem to fit into the scheme.
Starting a fully new design revolution will force Audi to change their image which they were working on for ages. That's why I doubt that Egger will bring any groundbreaking design philosophies to the new Generation of Audi. that's just how I look at it..

EnI:
MB: I agree - it's the question of management. Just like in the case of VW. The challenge is to fully understand the brand: not only its past but only its future. I think they haven't yet answered the question "How should the future MB (or VW) look like?" It looks like they have no idea what to do.

BMW: And in this department BMW are very strong: they know what they want, they know how to do it, and they are determined & focused. Also showing this through their designs. What BMW have realized in the past was how important the factor of design would become. That's why they hired Chris - to revive the design component, role & organization within BMW AG. Mind DesignWorksUSA - executing not only the automotive design. Very design oriented. That's why I think you will feel extremely well at BMW.

Audi: I used to like Audi. In previous Mks. They were always the avant-garde of German design in auto industry. But right now BMW have de-thorned them from avant-garde throne. Audi has decided to run on cold industrial machine-like technological design. The technocrati design is OK, but it is rigid. Cold emotions. I personally hope they will go more emotional with Egger, but there is only a small chance for that - unfortunately. IMO an advanced brande like Audi shoud have an advanced avant-garde design: just like they had it in the past. I guess Audi / VAG management thinks cold machine design fits Audi core value "Vorsprung durch Technik" best. Pity.

Being avant-garde = being ahead of trends. That will enable BMW to always look fresh & new & have attention, while Audi will stay in the past, looking more mature. And who knows what will happen to MB. Yet trends are working for MB - the population worldwide is getting older, so perhaps neo-baroque style will survive - and so will MB: as an old-man brand. Who knows.

I'm not in total agreeance with you guys, I personally don't think pure Audi design (Concept cars) are completely emotionless -- they evoke a kind of intellectual aesthetic -- they are the automotive equivalent of German electronic music -- BMW is like the music of Karlheinz Stockhausen and Mercedes is the music of Philip Glass. Please forgive my synesthetic examples if they appear strange. My point is, these designs are all expressive of our age -- they are all influenced by contemporary design and architecture.

I think Audi has the "personality" of the buildings of Herzog & de Meuron.

Thanks, H.


Another aspect came out recently :

Adrian van Hooydonk confirmed in latest interviews BMW moving back to shark-nose design (engineers has finally resolved the issue how to make shark nose complying to EU pedestrian law), and to more driver oriented dash / central console design.

It looks like BMW will play with all design aces they have in the next generation of cars: mixing past with the future. Kind a going avant-garde retro. Evolutionary revolution. New organic.

Cars with angry shark nose, wide horizontally stretched kidneys, angry looking quad headlights (with a help of angel eyes) with eyebrows, L-shaped rear lights, Hofmeister's kink, flame surfacing, typical BMW proportions, Bangle butt ver 2.0, typical BMW dual dials, driver oriented central console. All past + present design cues = future BMW design.

I guess BMW have found what they were looking fore: avant-garde modern & exciting look, still bit controversial - yet with all the traditional BMW design cues (some of them are missing on current models: eg. driver oriented cockpit & shark nose). And with much more attention to details ever seen on a BMW vehicles. And with more organic softer yet dynamic lines (especially in the cabin).

IMO the next generation of BMWs will be phenomenal: incorporating all the best from the past & present. Not so original, but more "back to the roots" - and IMO that will be very appreciated by BMW customers: the current ones who like avant-garde design, and again also the ones who love past BMW designs. A perfect mix. And with much more refined overall design - with attention to details & sophistication - something current BMWs not always posses. A field where Audi dominates in. BMW finally getting what is now missed.

Really, imagine: new BMWs with avant-garde exciting design, sharp & dynamic lines, new organic (softer), new modern (sharper) - yet with attention to details & sophistication of Audi.

Perfect.

So ... what's next? What kind of revolution are we getting in 2015?

So shark nose and angry lights are back. he he

Something to occupie your brains with for a while:

Why is it that all the guys intrested/educated in design feel that MB are falling behind??
While the masses love the latest MB´s.. from the S to the C??

Is it beacuse we the others dont know any better than to love what in your minds is poor design?
or is it cause ppl who are into something to deep tend to focus on details and miss whats really appealing to the broad masses??

PS
no diss to AUdi.bmw or any other members...
just want some input on the issue

thats a good question, i wonder about that sometimes. I dont find the Mona Lisa to be that hot of a painting, but art buffs and teachers find it amazing.
it may be because the design guys follow the 'rules' or ideas of design to the T. and because the public know nothing about them, they are oblivious to the fact that the car they love isn't all that great design wise, but it is good to themsleves based on their own Aesthetic preferences.Or its the fact that they can see past the logo on the front of the car. Many believe that just because it has the 3-point star on the front that its automatically beautiful.
I was sorta disapointed in the S-class,M-class, and Gl-class.they are to inconsistent to me, or just really boring.

^your point is valid about the Star and the brand thing..
but with this latest CL..and more so the new C class ive seen that ppl who are far from MB fans are loving these designs..
so really i dont have a clue ..
lets see what the others think about the issue

Looks only:
Yes, I also like the CL, the new C Avantgarde and CLS.
Hate the S klasse and GL, worst MB designs IMO (perhaps all time), and am kind of disapointed by the ML.

A vey good question actually.. This year in Geneva I met Brian Potter (our former admin at GCF) for the first time -after knowing him for 5 years now- and we were talking about the new C-class and stuff like that, and i told him that I'm really tired of looking at cars just to analyze the design of it rather than building a simple opinion on it: Do I like it or not?
My analyze and my understanding maybe all wrong and big BS, but I can't help it..

Anyway, to go back to MB: First of all, many of already know that I'm an MB fan, so I'm not just bashing them as a fan boy of an othr brand.
I said above, I don't think new MBs are ugly, they do have appealing looks, but I wholeheartedly agree with Tine that their design will age very soon.
IMO MB's design isn't as agood as in the past because it's lacking two very important points which are connected to each other: Originality and timelessness. And, there are also those struggled attempts to present MB as a sporty brand. Tine said it right IMO: MBs are and should be conservative. And that's what starts the conflict that MB's design managment seem to be overchallenged with. I'm not saying that it's a problem without a solution, but MB seemed to be sacrificing innovation in design for a sporty appearance. And that's what I think should never happen. Mercedes stands for innovation and originality more than for sportiness. They can't compete with Audi or BMW in that field, where they are already active in for decades.
Maybe this is what the markest demands. Sporty cars. but MB is really not the right name here IMO. They should do what they can do best: building elegant, classy cars. The world doesn't need another 3er or A4.

It's nice to hear a Merc fan basicaly saying what I've also said.
MB big mistake is that at one point lost their focus it the atent to please them all, and with it part of its identity both on a brand and design level.