But Martin,

1. The only reason so much attention was placed on the original idea is because the big mis-conception/untruth was the Mercedes saw what BMW did in 2002 and rushed to market a copy-cat system in 2007. That theory has been throughly de-bunked.

2. Wasn't saying that it was, really wasn't part of my position.

3. Ditto, see #2.

4. But BMW most certainly did see what MB displayed in 1995 and got cracking.

M

Circular logic anyone?

LOL. Well u sounded like u had been given first hand info dats y we asked. No offence

And at Rob: I agree with the F700 interior but i wonder why their interior concepts never materialize in their road cars, or even come close!

^ That's what I'd like to know

Actually, to be absolutely honest, I think it all comes down to the market.

Take the S class interior for example, it is so middle-class in terms of its aesthetics. This is primarily because the vast majority of the market has very middle-class taste.

This is not a criticism ....it is just the way it is.

When I use the term 'middle-class' or 'bourgeois' I am not speaking specifically of socio-economic status -- but purely about the tastes which make up the widest group of consumers who will own an S class.

I will be more specific and suggest that it is predominately tailored to the middle-class tastes of an affluent North American market. This is the market which dictates that the interior must still contain wood (for example) ...but also dictates the subtle retro elements which make very direct emotional connections with the observer.

This is a very good example of what I would call 'bourgeois taste' -- this represents the widest market for a product like the S class. It is very status-conscious ...containing archetypal elements which have deep-rooted cultural references to affluence and preconceived notions of 'good taste'.


Designers are influenced by what is happening at the very highest levels of culture -- a lot of compromises have to be made when translating these influences into a mainstream product.

Sculpture, Richard Serra


La Philharmonie de Paris, Jean Nouvel.




So you've really got a situation where you are trying to balance the high-culture ideals of the designers concepts with the much more conservative and predictable tastes of the market.

I think that mercedes design is more modern and classic in the same time...and influenced with some elements from the past (retro) and modern in a very mature quit way...while bmw is more fashion design and more influenced from the progressive and future in the same time...it's more screamy and noisy design ...which match more young ..thats why you feel bmw design fresh and stunning....but .....

my opinion is: bmw is a design leader as u say in this type of way /route....and not in the all lexury segment...it's not a above mercedes when it's a matter of design ...
Mercedes way of design is different ...and if u ask me?? I think that that Benz design will grow on us more over years ...and become classy while bmw design will become dated .

BMW= fashion MERCEDES= modern

Thanks Rob. Once again I really got a lot from your explanation there. Previously when you used the term 'middle class' I always assumed you were making reference to socio economic status. Now its making much more sense to me.

I've just been noticing over the past few weeks that even on the sets of US TV shows, this sort of 'style' or 'design' is prevalent and used to convey a sense of affluence. It's appealing, but its certainly isnt cutting edge, like the interiors of most luxury cars.

I would say all 3 germans are still very much taking into account this market when designing their interiors, Mercedes perhaps to the greatest extent with the S-class interior. It's a shame they just aren't pushing the boundaries a bit more. Sometimes the market has to be educated/trained

What would be really cool is if they all switched from rotary control knobs and switched to a touch pad similar to those used by graphic designers. Maybe omit the stylus and make it heat sensitive to touch... hmmmm

I'm glad my explanation was helpful ....I sometimes fear that I am very misinterpreted.

I think things are changing .....the market is becoming more and more open to new ideas. The connections being made with what is happening in other aspects of art and culture are now clearly pointed out in advertising and marketing from these manufacturers. We often see press photos with vehicles parked outside high-profile landmark buildings (including the manufacturer's own) ...and designers like Pfeiffer and Bangle are far more visible and vocal in the Media about their 'ideas' than their predecessors.

I think consumers are far more informed about, and interested in, design than in the past -- this is changing the types of products they want to own -- and this partly explains why Mercedes has become very progressive with its design in recent times.

Sacco transformed the significance of design for the Mercedes-Benz brand ...making it integral to the entire philosophy of the marque. Sacco was a very formal designer, schooled in post-WW2 Modernist ideology (he was an engineer by training); Pfeiffer is a different generation, he is a true post-modernist -- under him, Mercedes design has become much more expressive and emotive -- and also encompasses the marketing/image of the brand (right through the design process) far more than ever before.