German Car Zone

Guys ....

A trend in customer demand shows people want more comfortable suspensions in BMWs. BMW are offering some solutions (like Dynamic Damper Control etc) that allows people to get a bit more comfortable ride while still getting typical BMW dynamic ride. According to demands BMW are still not addressing this issue enough (but that was before DDC was widely introduced), and many customers would want to see even more comfortable BMW cars.

And ... as you know M cars are based on regular cars - and then modified into real M cars - so, the more comfortable the regular layout the more it has to be changed / modified to fit M standards. More modifications = more costs. And since the main goal is to be profitable BMW is not willing to offer eg. an M1 for a price that would be bearable for the proper number of customers. Of course M1 could be developed easily, but it would cost a lot. Much more than most people would be willing to pay for.

Eg. Porsche is in a different position: since their GT? cars are based on already very sporty cars / platforms.


Regarding X5 M / X6 M .... yes, it's a pure marketing decision. An easy money. There is a demand, and people are getting the cars. And are willing to pay for them.

Marketing dept. is sure such a move won't dilute M image - since both cars drive extremely M like (compared to the regular models), and also beating the rivals by far. And both cars will be compared within the segment, and not outside the segment: eg. nobody is crazy enough to compare eg. X6M to M3, or to 911. But X6M / X5M will be compared to ML AMG & Cayenne GTS / Turbo S etc.

M has huge costs with developing special M engines, and building them manually. Therefore the profitability is very thin. And therefore additional models are offered. It's still a business - satisfying customer's demand & generating profits. Not sticking to some principles from the past just for the sake of it.

The problem is many journalists (& other traditionalists) would like to see every BMW (especially Ms) driving like original E30 M3, or like E46 M3 CSL - but the reality is vast majority of customers don't want such raw cars any more. The tastes have changed.

Also ... BMW is not competing with Porsche mainly but more with MB, Audi & Lexus etc. It has to perform better than the direct rivals - not trying to be sports performance brand like Porsche.

Mind BMW offered raw cars in the past because there was a demand. And now the demand for raw cars is decreasing rapidely. Therefore BMW are not interested in this niche so much like in the past. Perhaps somebody else will fill this niche in the near future (eg. Jaguar; not Audi since they are too much volume-oriented as well). BMW are going with the trend - what makes perfect sense. But there will still be difference between BMW & its main rivals: BMW still having an edge. And again: no super-car is not necessary to achieve that, nor cars like 5er GT or X6 M / X5 M will hurt the image.

BMW have to be more careful with the core line: not allowing rivals to top eg. 1er, 3er, 5er, X3, X5 etc in drive dynamics. That would be fatal for BMW brand.

And remember: BMW is all about SHEER DRIVING PLEASURE! About joy made by driving a BMW. Not about ultimate sports cars. That's more Porsche's domain. Also: driving pleasre ... it's not the same all the time. It's changing with time. As do the people / customers.

Do not expect products & brands to be static. They exist in dynamic enviroment, and companies have to react, to adapt, to be able to change if necessary.

Its ****** up that Mercedes can produce Black-Series and special models (like SLR/SLS) while BMW can't. MB obviously have smarter customers

BMW M are becoming AMG. The sportconcept is getting similar, tons of torque, good comfort, heavy cars and no highreeving engines. Oh so boring! I guess I have to start buying a Saab once Koeniggsegg get their hands on the company.

If you call driving a 612HP SL65 AMG boring, then you shouldn't be driving at all. Maybe you need to start getting into piloting Jets or something.

its not the cars Im calling boring. you missunderstood me big time

M is already like AMG. With the introduction of the X5-M, BMW totally Massacred the M brand. Not only does the car house an automatic gear box, but it weighs over 2 tons, use forced induction and is an SUV. The X5-M is basically rock bottom and is the car nightmare BMW fans couldn't have dreamt of ever turning into reality.

Another point is that Mercedes have done a terrific job challenging BMW in the driving dynamics lately. Many of the new Mercs are close to neck and neck with bimmers in driving dynamics. Secondly there is a very promising SLS on the way and it will feature a double clutch transmission which will eventually trickle down to lower models. Before you know it, there will no longer be anything thrilling about BMW that makes them stand out from Porsche, Mercedes and Audi which all three have very exciting products in development.

Actually the difference is getting bigger with new products - yes, MB is a bit more sportier but the the difference between between car characters is much bigger in the new generation then it was in the previous ones. I'm talking about latest models here.

So, no - MB is not getting closer to BMW. BMW still has a clear edge on steering, handling, agility etc.

Regarding AMG vs. M ... BMW are going turbo. That's a fact. And so are going everybody else. So expect turbos in AMG & RS cars as well. Since turbo tech is THE tech of the moment. And only few specialized car makers will stick to NA engines - while all the others will shift to turbo tech completely.

Right now M are also working (with a partner) on a sporty gearboxes that will be compatible with turbo engines. For the X5 M / X6 M the gearbox wasn't ready yet. But that "issue" will be address in the future - in other M cars.

So, a lot of torque is a typical for turbo engines - and that will become a fact in M cars too. M can't afford to stick to NA engines - since they would have to develop completely new engines, and that would be very costly. So, it's not an option. Same case with RS & AMG.

Expect NA engines in sports performance brands only (eg. Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari etc). Or not even that.

NA engines are dying out ... and will become completely exotic. It's a fact. So, the sooner you accept that the better for you.




It's not something BMW made up ... it's a trend (due to exhaust emissions & fuel consumption regulation), and right now nobody is in a position to fight it. Fines / taxes on such cars will be huge - or in some scenarios thirsty & polluting cars won't get a green light from the regulators. So they their sale will be prohibited.


So, VIVA TURBO!


And prepare for the hybrid tech as well - everywhere - incl. in sports cars.

So, in the future sports cars will be fat, while some more exotic & expensive will be made of ultra-light materials, electro-driven only & using some super-expensive ultra-light batteries etc.

Times are changing. There is no way back. Stop day-dreaming.

I would argue it's the opposite, the C-Class in particular has in the past suffered from severe deprivation in snappiness, agility and steering feel. With the W204, MB have taken a big leap into the right direction, and that has been reflected with the very positive C-Class sales compared with the W203 which was no match to the 3-Series. The SL63 has had very positive light shed on it in comparisons against the M6 further more -- not to mention the performance pack available for the C63. Mercedes is taking dynamic driving more serious than ever and the SLS should be a pinnacle product in reflecting reinvented Mercedes. Therefore future products should make worthy alternative to sporty bimmers. Don't forget Audi, they are coming up strong as well, not to mention Porsche which have slowly and successfully sliding into MB and BMW territory. Thus, there is a need to stand out with exclusive top end products i.e CLK63 BS, R8, SLS and S63 AMG.

Could not have put it better myself and general sums up the mood within BMW. Recently I was in a 5er preview that would showcase the next generation of 5er - There was sedan , Touring and Gran Turismo strangely enough there was no M5, there was a M representitive though.

(Mercedes had just launched their E63 AMG at this point)

Mercedes were making noises about the percentage saved in fuel consumption - 2% more efficient than the W211.
Now BMW are evaluating two engines for the next M5/M6 the Turbo V8 featured in the X-M's and a Turbo experimental V10 based on the V8 with two extra cylinders added.

The next M5 will feature a roadgoing KERS drivetrain with other beneficial fuel saving technology as the ability to shut down cylinders for urban driving. However the KERS will feature from the F1 programme a boost button so the driver can unleash all this energy stored up. Over the current V10 the fuel savings were much greater than the current car. again two gearboxes are under consideration an updated DCT or indeed an 8 speed SMG - M5's are all about standing out from the competition and BMW MotorSport director Dr Mario Thiessen will advise on the development of the new M5 as well as the usual M suspects.
BMW would like to be first with a Roadgoing KERS but that looks like it's going to be Ferrari.

Turbo and highreeving engines can be combined. Why isnt BMW trying.
If they combined a highreeving engine with a Turbo, they would once again be different from MB/Audi.
The engines alone was a reason why you buy a M instead of an AMG but now when BMW M are building turbo engines thats only reeving 7000 rpm you can just buy yourself a AMG.

BMW are suppose to be one of the best engine builders so why dont they put some effort to do something others arent doing. Again, if BMW combined Turbo with highreeving engine they would once again stand out from the competition.

Look at this supercharged highreeving M3 V8. I would love to see BMW doing something like this.

What exactly will KERS be, similar to the hybrid setup in the 7er and S400 Hybrid except that power will be stored pending driver pressing the release button? Continuous release of energy would be more efficient and usable in a passenger car. Hell, KERS is even useless for F1 cars unless they are on a straight and have maxed out the engine power. I cannot think of any situation when anyone on regular roads would ever reach the maximum output of the engine and be in need of an extra boost -- except for Gumball 3000 participants and hijackers trying to escape a squad car.

What will be the operational difference between KERS and a BMW Hybrid?