German Car Zone

Is this why Porsche and Mercedes don't trust each other anymore?


M

I'm sorry, but that is just typical crap from Autocar! Why would there be any need to develop an A5 in an estate/station wagon style, when they already have an identical spec'd version - called the A4 Avant. Don't forget that the new A4 shares the same identical floorpan/chassis and running gear as the A5.

Yet another case of Autocar talking from where the sun doesn't shine from!

But Porsche will not get hold of Bugatti. Bugatti is owned by Volkswagen France, and although Volkswagen France is still a subsidiary of Volkswagen AG (Volkswagen Group) - because Bugatti is owned by VW France, and is headquartered in France, it is protected under French law, and not German law.

The only way Porsche would get ownership of Bugatti would be if VW AG were to effectively close down Volkswagen France, but I can't see the French government allowing that to happen.

Porche have nothing to offer Audi. Porche will only gain from the takeover. Audi are doing fine and getting better and better on their own. Audi's first attempt at road going sports car betters what Porche can offer in similar segment.

Tell me wjhat Porche bring to the table that Audi can't do themselves? And before you put it I don't want to read about increasing profit margins and less weight-Audi are making loads of money all on there own getting bigger and bigger and developing third generation aluminium space frame.

This Porsche story seems to put everyone out of their minds... Why all the stuff about Maybach, Bugatti, Lagonda...

BMW, Audi and Mercedes are living thanks to their "smaller" models, especially 3/A4/C and 5/A6/E. Only MB makes a lot of money with the S. Other modelms aren't at all core-products.

And the problem here is not Porsche helping Audi developping their RS-Models that sells in ridiculous numbers.

The thing is, will such a GIANT as PAH threaten MB and BMW? Is being such an enormous company such an advantage that it will make any smaller company struggling to survive?

Is bigger always better? I'm not sure.
What does it bring? Monstrous money. Thus, enormous R&D capacities. Scale-savings, too.
However, it makes such a company slow to react, hard to drive.

History proved that a merger is far from being the right solution in any case...

Will MB and BMW survive, with PAH alongside? Will they team-up, merge, disappear? They want to tem-up by buying some components together, and to cooperate on some R&D-hungry green tech. That is imo the right solution, I don't believe more is needed.

Toyota is a giant, earning almost as much every year as all the other carmakers together... yet they still have very healthy competitors. Same will happen with PAH, they won't kill all the others.

Many studies proved it, it's not necessarily the ones investing the more in R&D who can make the most inventions and innovations.

You CANNOT reduce the making of a car to the amount of money involved in its conception. You CANNOT assume that every car made by PAH will be superior to the car produced by MB or BMW just because PAH has more money. You CANNOT assume that PAH will be first everywhere just because they have more R&D investment.

PAH is a threat. MB and BMW already had to face such threats. They will be fine, without needing a holding or merger.

You know, some years ago, every experts said that size was of the essence: no small carmaker could survive, only giants. Scale-savings and common R&D were the only things that could make a carmaker survive.
yet they were proven wrong...

Size is NOT the only thing in the automotive industry. There are other ways to survive than becoming a behemoth.

PAH is a big danger to BMW & MB.

Not only huge R&D resources ... I'm not talking about money only but about know-how as well. And they can easily take away some extrordinary engineers from BMW & MB (and other companies). Developing things for brands like Porsche, Audi, Lambo, Bugatti, Bentley is a huge challenge & opportunity for every engineer. And also to project managers, marketing people, & people from other departments.

And even more dangerous is the ability of using economy of scales - cheaper purchasing, cheaper production, shared R&D costs etc. Meaning they will either be able to offer new tech faster, or will cost them less.

In this case BMW & MB will have to offer the tech as well to be competitive - but will cost them more than the PAH brands.

Same case with Lexus in US market ... But PAH is much more dangerous with the globally present Audi brand, and much more suitable product line.
Mind the only weak point for Audi is the US market - which in the last years (strong USD) proved to be an advantage (as much as Audi's strong presence in China - an opportunity for Porsche to use VW / Audi plants in China).

Porsche will apply their organizational & management system into the VAG as well. And that's scary. Imagine VAG being as efficient as PAG.

Regarding Bugatti etc - Porsche doesn't necessary take premium brands under the Porsche roof. The crucial point is to put right (Porsche) people in the right places - who will act synchronized & under direct Porsche product policy. No matter the certain brand is owned by Audi AG, or VW France etc.


Regarding BMW+MB holding - it's just a tool to force these two companies to cooperate. Since both senior managers are too proud to cooperate. Current cooperations are a move into right direction. And some holding having stakes in both companies & its own people in the Supervisory Board of both companies can make the whole cooperation thing a bit easier. Since it can act as a catalyst.

Of course both companies will stay independent but being forced to cooperate in big R&D or standardized projects, perhaps sharing production of some parts (eg. steel or aluminum plants), purchasing same parts (eg. small hidden parts not essential to the brand differentiation) etc.

Several other companies will be also forced to team up.

MB and BMW MUST cooperate,PAH is dead serious.

I was totally against MB and BMW cooperation but now hell yeah do it NOW!

Exactly.

BMW & MB car divisions were merely positive in Q3, while both will be into the red in Q4. Although YTD results, and Group results will be positive.

But in 2009 ... red numbers all along!
Not to mention completely poor cash flow / slow revenues.

Of course PAH will be hit as well in 2009 but has much more reserves now teamed up with VAG.


*****

BMW & Daimler better do something quickly.

I'm expecting some serious deals to be announced till Detroit 2009 autoshow.

Otherwise I can see Daimler in big trouble - investors could put their shares on sale, while BMW will see the Quandts increasing their share over 50% to insure their influence in the company if other investors start to abandon the ship.

But as said ... I'm sure te Quandts will be able to persuade BMW & Daimler investors to invest their money into Aqton SE. As said: even AM could join the party later if in trouble.

I'm still firmy against all the merger or Aqton stuff. Not because of misplaced proud or anything, but because I fail to see what it can achieve that BMW and Daimler couldn't if they cooperate.

I believe that bigger is not always better. Sure PAH is very dangerous, but BMW and Daimler are willing to cooperate: on common purchase (scale-savings) and on green-tech R&D.

What would this Aqton stuff bring, except to the Qandt? Nothing at all. BMW and Daimler have different philosophies that are not compatible. They have proud that are not compatible with what would be seen as a BMW takeover, as the Qandt are the initiators of Aqton, therefore it would fail completely.

IMO (and again, I'm no expert so this is only my opinion) a cooperation is much better. No heavy structure, no proud involved, no orders, but still big scale-savings and R&D economies. All the better from a merger, without the letdowns.

The only imperative is to clearly define the way they would cooperate: how common decisions are reached, about what, with who. With that clearly stated, a merger or common structure is by no way needed, it's only a way for the Qandt to become even wealthier.

Also, the argument "BMW and Daimler need the Qandt to push them to cooperate because the actual CEOs are dumb proud oldfashioned lonely men" is completely wrong. A cooperation must come from within both companies and be agreed by them. if you force them, it will fail.
Both Reithofer and Zetsche proved they are willing to cooperate. So the Aqton is totally overdue, even counterproductive imo.