The new CEO of Ford drives 'the finest car in the world' - Page 3

Top Secret

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Originally Posted by Yannis

Just a quick remark and i will reply to the rest later. Jaguar and Cadillac are well established luxury marques as far as i am concerned cause they have the tradition and unique identity that it takes for a marque to be considered as luxurious. They don't immitate and they didn't fall from the sky one day trying to convince everyone of their status.

I'm not sure where Jaguar and Cadillac come into this discussion, but whatever. I also disagree with your opinion that history and tradition makes a luxury brand, but I'll let that one slide.

Also, you have to remember that every luxury marque, at one time, 'fell from the sky one day' and convinced everyone that they made luxury cars. It's just that the time in which they did that was so long ago, people have forgotten and assumed that these brand have just 'been there'. Lexus is essentially doing the same thing, only it's much harder for them to establish themselves as a prestige marque in such a modern,large, commercialised and globalised world of ours. Yet, in some parts of the world, they've done it. In the US and Australia, Lexus is often found in the same sentence as BMW and MB. It's just that in Europe, they haven't so far.

There are numerous examples of these types of car manufacturers. Take Pagani for example. They essentially came out of nowhere in 1999 with the release of the C12, and now, not even 10 years later, we consider the iconic Zonda better than rival Ferrari's and Porsches, even though these brands each have 50+ years history behind them. Sure, perhaps it's easier for supercar brands to 'make it', but there's no reason why Lexus, in the near future, can't.

Oh yeah, one more thing. You seem to assume that Lexus imitates it's competitors and make it out to be a bad thing. You think that other prestige marques, or heck, EVERY other car maker in the world doesn't imitate or copy it's rivals? Everyone is just as guilty as Lexus.

NB: I don't actually think Lexus is a habitual imitator of it's competitors. They haven't succumbed to the iDrive/MMI/COMMAND nonsense like it's competitiors, nor have their recent styling efforts reflected those of their rivals. They, in my view, have their own 'identity'.

Mr. M

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Secret

Yannis, I fail to see how I "fell" for Lexus "propaganda". What propaganda lies with the success of Lexus? Nothing, really. They simply make good cars that can mix it with the best of them. It's nothing confusing or idiotic about it. The fact that they became front-runners with such established nameplates such as BMW and MB in only the past few years is testament to how good Lexus' are. No propaganda. Just good, simple cars.

As for their limited successes in Europe, just because a brand doesn't sell very well doesn't mean that their cars are not good. That's stupid. You have to remember, that the majority group doesn't care about how 'good' a car is, but focus more on the trends and brand reputation/history. Also, other factors such as advertising and brand awareness also contribute to the success of a car manufacturer. Now, I don't live in Europe, so I can't really elaborate on Lexus' limited succeses, but looking from the outside in, I could only assume that the lack of advertising in print and media and Lexus is failing to properly get their cars 'out there'. Also, the history of the brand (which can't be helped) must also provide a crippling effect to the sales.

However, it is obvious that Lexus is trying to find it's feet in Europe after such huge successes in America (which still stand as the largest car market in the world) and arguably, Lexus will invest a large amount in getting the Lexus nameplate into Europe. Whether this will meet success in the next few years is debatable, but I hope they succeed, as they deserve it.

Another factor which contributes to the dismal sales is the European 'resistance' to Japanese cars. As far as I know, brands that are popular in Australia and USA, such as Mazda, Nissan and Toyota are continually shunned by the European public. You are a classic example of this attitude. According to you, anything that's not German should be regarded as an inferior vehicle. Perhaps that might be due to European car prices being lower than equivalent costs in America and Australia (where Japanese cars being great value for money), so 'premium' brand cars from Europe are of similar prices to that of their Japanese counterparts. This is just a mindset of the European majority, and ultimately, it will take years and years, if ever, to break that mentality. Lexus simply cannot do anything about this mindset, and will endure tough times in the coming years. Just plain bad luck, really.

So there you have it Yannis. There's no relationship between good cars and sales, and Lexus' less-than-impressive sales are more contributed to the mindset of the European public, and just pure bad luck. Nothing else, to be honest.

Don't forget as well that Lexus doesn't make enough comparable diesel cars that can compete with the highly-developed diesel models of the German cars. Diesel cars contribute to plenty of car sales in some countries in Europe, and in many at least more than half of the cars sold are diesel-powered.

A solid, awesome diesel car is needed dearly to penetrate the European market- I believe this is the one and perhaps only aspect at which Lexus is lacking in at the moment.

Yannis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top Secret

I'm not sure where Jaguar and Cadillac come into this discussion, but whatever. I also disagree with your opinion that history and tradition makes a luxury brand, but I'll let that one slide.

I said that regarding your comment:

Quote:

You are a classic example of this attitude. According to you, anything that's not German should be regarded as an inferior vehicle.

So you believe that i consider (for example) Rolce Royce , Bentley, Ferrari or even Pagani and Spyker inferior? When did i said that?

Pagani is not a good example as how a new car maker can be established overnight as they have very limited production and make top of the world , ultra expensive cars and that makes them unique and desirable.

SDNR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just_me

The newly named chief executive officer of Ford Motor Co. drives a Lexus LS 430, the flagship luxury sedan from Toyota Motor Corp. that he unabashedly says he purchased because "it's the finest car in the world."

- ONLY REGISTERED AND ACTIVATED USERS CAN SEE ALL LINKS - CLICK HERE TO REGISTER

...and there is the problem with Ford. If they honestly view Lexus as the benchmark, then they have clearly lost their passion for automobiles.

Top Secret

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

I said that regarding your comment:

So you believe that i consider (for example) Rolce Royce , Bentley, Ferrari or even Pagani and Spyker inferior? When did i said that?

Pagani is not a good example as how a new car maker can be established overnight as they have very limited production and make top of the world , ultra expensive cars and that makes them unique and desirable.

No, I know you don't consider Bentley inferior, because suprise, suprise, they're owned by VAG, but I came to the conclusion that you find other vehicles inferior because you don't like any French manufacturers, any Japanese manufacturers, no American manufacturers (bar Cadillac, it seems), which make up a heck of a lot of the automotive landscape.

Referring to the Pagani example, I believe it's very relevant, because there have been thousands of exclusive supercar makers like Farboud who have seemingly disappeared into nothing. It's a ruthless market, however many they make or however expensive they are. It still applies to the luxury market, although to a greater extent. But I believe Lexus has the potential to crack it.

SDNR

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

Just a quick remark and i will reply to the rest later. Jaguar and Cadillac are well established luxury marques as far as i am concerned cause they have the tradition and unique identity that it takes for a marque to be considered as luxurious. They don't immitate and they didn't fall from the sky one day trying to convince everyone of their status.

I agree Yannis ..we must also realize that the most fundamental difference between Lexus and its competitors is Lexus was conceived in a boardroom ....it is as much an exercise in exemplary marketing as it is in excellent engineering -- DCX could learn a thing or two from Lexus, with regards to Maybach.

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac -- regardless of whether they are technically better or inferior to Lexus, are still stronger brands in the minds of millions of consumers.

However, I must commend Toyota for doing their homework; they understand the psyche of the American market inside-out -- unlike VAG with the Phaeton. The Europeans will take a little more time, but Lexus are certainly a serious threat to the Germans ...Mercedes and BMW cannot afford to be complacent.

Merc1

Wow a debate about Lexus! Should I or shouldn't I?

M

Tycoon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc1

Wow a debate about Lexus! Should I or shouldn't I?

M

You should! Get 'em!

Yannis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roberto

I agree Yannis ..we must also realize that the most fundamental difference between Lexus and its competitors is Lexus was conceived in a boardroom ....it is as much an exercise in exemplary marketing as it is in excellent engineering -- DCX could learn a thing or two from Lexus, with regards to Maybach.

Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, Cadillac -- regardless of whether they are technically better or inferior to Lexus, are still stronger brands in the minds of millions of consumers.

However, I must commend Toyota for doing their homework; they understand the psyche of the American market inside-out -- unlike VAG with the Phaeton. The Europeans will take a little more time, but Lexus are certainly a serious threat to the Germans ...Mercedes and BMW cannot afford to be complacent.

I agree 100%.

I also don't understand why Top Secret accuses me of not liking Japanese , French and American cars (with a few exceptions). If i liked them then it would make no sense to be in a forum called GERMAN Car Zone.

warot

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yannis

I agree 100%.

I also don't understand why Top Secret accuses me of not liking Japanese , French and American cars (with a few exceptions). If i liked them then it would make no sense to be in a forum called GERMAN Car Zone.

I'm sorry Yannis but I have to agree with TS. If there was a Lexus badge on an A8, my bet would be that you wouldn't like it. Sure this is German car zone but still, some respect has to be given to Lexus.

Look, I'm going to come out and say that Lexus is pretty far down my list after German cars (mostly because I don't really like their styling. New ones aren't as bad). But if we for a moment stop thinking about the brand itself, and think of the cars, are they really that inferior to the Germans (if inferior at all)? I don't think so, I really don't. Sure brand is important, but sometimes you have to see past the marketing and what not and look at the product.

Btw, TS, Pagani is an excellent example. It doesn't matter how many cars they sell. They came out of nowhere. Now they are world famous. DIfferent scale I guess, same idea.