[Centurion]

^^
The Targa is AWD and has always had a slightly wider hips than the normal 911 models.

[Poverty]

I hope this FL 997 TT will finally now be able to retake its throne from the GTR.

[Centurion]

Originally Posted by Poverty

I hope this FL 997 TT will finally now be able to retake its throne from the GTR.

The face lifted GT3 might but not the Turbo. AWD isn't Porsche's expertise, the 911 is built from the ground and up to be RWD while the GT-R has been developed with AWD in mind from the get go. But the power increase and gearbox should close the gap a little.

[Imhotep Evil]

Agreed, the difference in AWD is that the GT-R always had that type of system pioneered by Lancia on Group A WRC cars (the Lancia Delta HF Integrale) to have control of torque to each individual wheel via 1 central active differential + 2 yaw/super-yaw (front and rear) active differentials.

The germans are barely discovering that there's a thing called active (torque distribution) AWD, with BMW's X6 dynamic AWD (or what they call the central plus rear yaw control AWD system) the only one standing a chance.

Porsche needs an both a proper active AWD system, a proper semi-auto and maybe even some more of the weight between the driver and the rear axle to take on the GT-R, until then it's just wishful thinking.

[Wunderkind]

Agreed, the difference in AWD is that the GT-R always had that type of system pioneered by Lancia on Group A WRC cars (the Lancia Delta HF Integrale) to have control of torque to each individual wheel via 1 central active differential + 2 yaw/super-yaw (front and rear) active differentials.

A full-time 4WD system similar to the one in the GT-R would be difficult because of the weight and packaging issues around the rear-engine set-up of the 911. Nissan has had nearly two decades to refine their ATTESA 4WD system and it'd take Porsche a few years to catch up (I dare say even Audi does not possess such 4WD software expertise). Furthermore, Porsche has always resisted these clever (ie highly computerised) 4WD because it dilutes from the driving pleasure.

The germans are barely discovering that there's a thing called active (torque distribution) AWD, with BMW's X6 dynamic AWD (or what they call the central plus rear yaw control AWD system) the only one standing a chance.

The torque distribution system of the BMW X6 is nothing new. Alfa Romeo had one in the early 1980's. It was essentially a simple differential with a clutch for each of the rear wheels so that the torque distributed to each wheel could be varied. Of course the BMW system is much more advanced. Also the tight packaging of the front end (where the tiny boot and the already smallish fuel tank and other auxiliary systems are located) of the 911 would make this quite difficult. These 'clever' differentials need a fair bit of cooling and lubrication.

Porsche needs an both a proper active AWD system, a proper semi-auto and maybe even some more of the weight between the driver and the rear axle to take on the GT-R, until then it's just wishful thinking.

The limitations of the rear-engine set-up in the 911 is well-documented. But I am sure the set-up will persist for many years. The last time a Porsche executive tried to convince Ferdinand Piech about changing the rear-engine set-up. He was fired swiftly. That Porsche executive was Arno Bohn of the early 1990's. He also championed the stillborn 4-door 989.

Putting more weight between the driver (or the front axle) and the rear axle will help reduce the pendulum effects that plague rear-engined cars. Porsche can do this by lengthening the wheelbase and to a lesser degree, play with the suspension set-up to achieve that.

I think the forthcoming Porsche DSG gearbox will be a gem. It has taken them a rather long time to engineer this gearbox...............

I think Porsche will have their hands full making their cars more 'compliant' to the proposed EU exhaust emissions directives. It is not unthinkable that more Porsches will have smaller capacity turbocharged engines.

[martinbo]

Luw, Porsche are pioneers in AWD driven supercars. It's quite simple to understand that Porsche realise that there is an application and a purpose for both RWD and AWD. That they offer both systems is a glaringly obvious indication of the merits / drawbacks of both systems. The 911 Turbo is the everyday supercar. It's designed to be as practical and useable in varied conditions. The 911 is a luxury performance car that makes not pretence about being a track burner. This is left to the GT3 and GT3 RS.

A lot of Porsche's customers will opt for the tiptronic transmission in the 911 turbo -another indication that the car is offered as the ultimate blend of performance and convenience. In the dry the Turbo is still a devastating piece of kit but in inclement conditions few cars can match its ability.

~~~~

The AWD system on the new GT-R is quite unlike that of the old GT-R34. It's less high tech and less complex.

I'm quite sure that Porsche have the wherewithal to match and surpass the GT-R (as frightfully good as it is...) with future releases of the 911 turbo.

[Imhotep Evil]

[quote=Wunderkind;281819]
A full-time 4WD system similar to the one in the GT-R would be difficult because of the weight and packaging issues around the rear-engine set-up of the 911. Nissan has had nearly two decades to refine their ATTESA 4WD system and it'd take Porsche a few years to catch up (I dare say even Audi does not possess such 4WD software expertise). Furthermore, Porsche has always resisted these clever (ie highly computerised) 4WD because it dilutes from the driving pleasure.


Suppliers, suppliers, suppliers.

I don't know how Porsche resisted for the sake of driver pleasure considering the 959 was quite THE pioneer in computerised AWD sportscars/supercars.

Just that the HF Integrale and GT-R raised the stick and Porsche no longer followed (OK so financial reasons and the disgrunt of the "old boys" (from within and outside the company) to the AWD Porsche did play a big part).

The torque distribution system of the BMW X6 is nothing new. Alfa Romeo had one in the early 1980's. It was essentially a simple differential with a clutch for each of the rear wheels so that the torque distributed to each wheel could be varied. Of course the BMW system is much more advanced. Also the tight packaging of the front end (where the tiny boot and the already smallish fuel tank and other auxiliary systems are located) of the 911 would make this quite difficult. These 'clever' differentials need a fair bit of cooling and lubrication.

The active systems are highly computerissed and I do mean highly, as they instantly switch torque to the wheel(s) with the grip and constantly measure lots of things from steering, tyre pressure, grip to g-forces. The computer nervous system makes all the difference.

The limitations of the rear-engine set-up in the 911 is well-documented. But I am sure the set-up will persist for many years. The last time a Porsche executive tried to convince Ferdinand Piech about changing the rear-engine set-up. He was fired swiftly. That Porsche executive was Arno Bohn of the early 1990's. He also championed the stillborn 4-door 989.

Putting more weight between the driver (or the front axle) and the rear axle will help reduce the pendulum effects that plague rear-engined cars. Porsche can do this by lengthening the wheelbase and to a lesser degree, play with the suspension set-up to achieve that.

I think the forthcoming Porsche DSG gearbox will be a gem. It has taken them a rather long time to engineer this gearbox...............

I think Porsche will have their hands full making their cars more 'compliant' to the proposed EU exhaust emissions directives. It is not unthinkable that more Porsches will have smaller capacity turbocharged engines.

Agreed.

[Wunderkind]

I think the new Nissan GT-R has shocked the sportscar world like the Lexus did to the luxury car world nearly two decades ago.

Let's also not forget there is going to be an even more devastating Nissan GT-R V-Spec coming out in 12 months............

I think the one thing that we can all agree on is that Porsche cannot sit back and let the Nissan GT-R take over the title of "The Fastest Point-to-Point Roadcar in the World".

But there is precious little Porsche can do to the current 997 Turbo to make it a GT-R beater. I think there will be no fundamental redesigns given the 997 has only three or four years left before being replaced by the next generation 911 (a 998?).

The new Direct Injection engine, DSG gearbox, and various other small tweeks will make the 997 a better car no doubt. But there will be no major changes underneath the skin that would make it a GT-R beater.

The ATTESA 4WD system in the Nissan GT-R is proprietary. I dont think other car manufacturers can just buy it off-the-shelf from a supplier.

[Poverty]

I reckon if porsche can dial out a bit more understeer, and with the extra power and DSG it can match and even beat the GTR for 0-62mph times, and beat it around tracks.

I hope the 998 Turbo will kick GTR arse.

The R8 seems to have the handling prowess to beat the GTR but just lacks the grunt. If it had 500hp do you guys think it would bother the GTR?

[Centurion]

Originally Posted by martinbo

Luw, Porsche are pioneers in AWD driven supercars. It's quite simple to understand that Porsche realise that there is an application and a purpose for both RWD and AWD. That they offer both systems is a glaringly obvious indication of the merits / drawbacks of both systems. The 911 Turbo is the everyday supercar. It's designed to be as practical and useable in varied conditions. The 911 is a luxury performance car that makes not pretence about being a track burner. This is left to the GT3 and GT3 RS.

A lot of Porsche's customers will opt for the tiptronic transmission in the 911 turbo -another indication that the car is offered as the ultimate blend of performance and convenience. In the dry the Turbo is still a devastating piece of kit but in inclement conditions few cars can match its ability.

~~~~

The AWD system on the new GT-R is quite unlike that of the old GT-R34. It's less high tech and less complex.

I'm quite sure that Porsche have the wherewithal to match and surpass the GT-R (as frightfully good as it is...) with future releases of the 911 turbo.

Yes Porsche can play the AWD games as well but they have yet to master it like Nissan and Audi has with their flagship models. Despite the AWD and power advantage the 997TT hasn't been able to match the R8 or even the GT3. I have heard numerous complaints by magazines that the car is unlike the GT3 a bit difficult to handle at it's limits.

Even though it's a bit more luxury oriented than the GT3 it's still a 911 and should be amongst the best there is.