Ah, put me on the spot now why don't you BBoi? Seriously, most people here think I'm mad for saying it but I really am a big admirer of the original (as in pre-facelift) E65. It has tremendous presence on the road and looks ever so much better than the current facelift - which now wears it's facelift like an identity crisis. It's all in the details: those new headlamp shapes, front skirt and rear light cluster treatment are incongruous with the overall image of the car.

If the old E65 proudly wore its new design language to the max with a medal of honour, the facelift seems ashamed of such boldness and downplays the radical piece of work that the E65 originally was with some seriously non-commital detailing.

I think the 6er is a fabulous piece of work in all 3 incarnations: coupe, convertible (one of the most beautiful cars ever to wear a soft-top) and M6. It's distinctive, sporty and very classy whilst at the same time looking very up-to-date and modern.

The new Z4 Coupe looks fabulous with its retro proportion and futuristic sheetmetal treatment.

The stock 5er is not a styling success. It lacks the timelessness of the E39 imo. Most appealing in Touring guise.

The 335 is conservatively elegant and hardly futuristic but it is pleasing to the eye even though I do still yearn for a little more Bangle-esque treatment of the rear which still looks a tad dainty in my eyes...

Just trying to rattle your cage so to speak because over the years (from GCF days) I've noticed that when asked a similar question you've usually replied with a philisophical answer with a broader context and meaning rather than simply getting down to the nitty-gritty specifics as you have done with your post above.


I agree whole-heartedly with that paragraph there. Put aside the tremendous presence of the RR Phantom and ofcourse lets forget about the ever-increasing number of supercars, the E65 7er commands a sense of presence that is unrivalled in the uber-luxury segment. The massive (yet impressive looking) wheels, the no-bullsh*t facial expression (in most angles) as well as other Bangle-bits such as the thick shoulderline being twisted and moulded into the infamous Bangle-butt.

To be honest though, in hindsight the E65 was not that radical in it's design apart from the protruding rear. The front of the car was still fairly conventional with lines running horizontally, whereas nowadays we're seeing a myriad of cars with lines swooping from the lights down to the mouth of the car. The side of the car did not contain the drastic flame-surfacing which gained its spotlight when the Z4 droptop hit motorshow stands across the world. But I guess this tied in with the 'no nonsense' imagery that the 7er was hoping to portray. No fancy-pancy cut lines or concave/convex sheet metal... just a simple, bare, solid look, ..which again added to its commanding presence.

I agree that the facelifted 7er was in a sense going back on the laurels that BMW had originally established for the E65 model. The smiley-face front as well as the attempt to make the rear bootlid a little less bare by added those 2 extra jigsaw light pieces still had 'BMW' written all over it in terms of how these 2 design elements were executed, but it certainly did not have '7 series' written all over it. It still possesses that 'larger than life' presence the pre-facelift 7er brought forward in 2001, but unlike the original rendition which was a case of 'the end result is greater than the sum of its parts' the facelift model has contrasting themes which cancel themselves out. The end result is a car which probably is more appealing to the average BMW 7 series buyer, but also a car which lost its identity.

Most would argue that it was a case of BMW giving-in to public pressure. BMW took more hits from the automotive fraternity over the E65 than any opponent of Mohammed Ali ever did...and therefore had to take corrective action. Like many have said, the new image of BMW was that of being distinctive and taking a bit of a risk with designs... so to see BMW do a backflip on these two points, it really echoed the message that BMW had got it wrong with the E65. Ironically, the reality of it all is that it's the other way around.

The way I see it, it was a shortcoming on BMW's part. With the launch of the E65 7er BMW ushered in a new generation of innovativeness, a new style of designing as well as a departure from their conservative nature of yester-years. But the most significant change was the emphasise of being and dynamic and distinctive. This image was most notably shown in the design of their vehicles, but I'm a believer that the roots of 'dynamic and distinctive' dig deeper into the heart of BMW. Work culture and management style followed similar thinking (ie: of being new, different and innovative), BMW adopted a marketing strategy which focused on differentiation (best echoed by it's slogan) and undertook a promotional strategy which was very different from the status quo in the automotive industry. To me, 'dynamic' and 'distinctive' are not simply terms to describe BMW vehicles, but words to describe BMW as a whole.
So back to BMW's shortcoming. BMW failed to emphasise the point I made above. The radical and unorthodox design of BMW vehicles represented and symbolised a whole lot more than simply an attention-grabbing car. Every car embodied what BMW was all about.. but BMW failed to bring forward this point when they launched the E65. They said how the 7er would change the uber-luxury segment with its distinctive styling and tech' gadgetry, but what they should have done was emphasise the deeper change in BMW. They should have talked about how BMW's direction had changed and that it's approach to car design would reflect this shift in focus/direction. It should have been how BMW was changing and that the E65 7er was the first product spawned from this new BMW. They should have used the BMW name to explain and promote the new focus at BMW rather than using the 7er as an open target due to the fact that BMW did not properly explain why it had taken such a radical route with the 7er. Most of us were left to interpret their own message and meaning from the E65 7er, and as hindsight has shown, it was a bit of a mistake. Consumers shouldn't be left to make-out their own message and meaning from a product, it should be fed to them in a clear and understandable way (I know, sounds very cynical, but hey, that's what they're teaching me for my Marketing major). This is why many people here at GCZ simply do not have a holistic grasp of what BMW is all about. They see the lines, they see the convex/concave sheet-metal, they see the bootlids, the eyebrows, the xenon rings and so on.. but they don't see what it all represents, what it means and most importantly they don't appreciate the 'philosophy' behind the designs.


I've always said, the E65 7er deserved a whole lot more credit than it ever received, ...and to me that's a damn shame. It wasn't just a BMW, it is BMW.

Great post, mate!

Thanks for that buddy.

I feel strongly about the E65 7er and the injust treatment of the car. Even if people don't actually like the look of the car, they should still very much respect what the car is all about. It's more than a car... it's a statement of what BMW's about and where they're headed. Just too bad BMW didn't promote that connection between car and company more during the E65's launch.

Nonetheless.. the E65 was the best-selling 7er in history, so it was a success, but I get the feeling that BMW was really aiming at de-throning the S-class once and for all.. but it only held that rank temporarily til Audi brought out their A8, and then ofcourse S-class reclaimed it just recently.

I should quote myself again i guess, but anyways... I completely agree with everything you've said, my Aussie friend! Well put!

This whole discussion about car design is really all about stylism. BMW have not radically changed car design at all (as BB pointed out) -- they merely just added a few quirky stylistic elements to a relatively typical BMW sedan. It is really no different from the tail-fins in the 1950s.

IMO, the Japanese and French are doing far more interesting, and genuinely forward-looking stuff.

BMW have really just captured a stylistic zeitgeist that has been around for quite some time ...and their interpretations are not even that original -- 'flame surfacing' and Ford's 'Edge' styling from the mid 1990s have a lot in common.

That may well be true from a artistic/stylistic point of view, but the point I was trying to make is more from a philosophical/meaning perspective.

What you've written there Rob is still concentrating purely on each design element. Like I said in my earlier post:

"This is why many people here at GCZ simply do not have a holistic grasp of what BMW is all about. They see the lines, they see the convex/concave sheet-metal, they see the bootlids, the eyebrows, the xenon rings and so on.. but they don't see what it all represents, what it means and most importantly they don't appreciate the 'philosophy' behind the designs."

The 'Bangle' styling itself, as Rob stated, is not all that new. Sharp lines and funky sheet-metal have been around for years. BMW is not the first car manufacturer to produce controversial designs that's for sure. But you see, that's looking at the designs from a purely artistic/stylistic point of view... what you really need to do is look at the new BMW designs in the context of the company itself.

Prior to the Bangle era the design of the vehicles that BMW produced were widely accepted, widely loved ...mainly because they were conversative but still good-looking. BMW as a company needed a shift in direction, a shift in focus.... it needed a different approach if it was to seriously take-on Mercedes Benz (we can see the end result is BMW surpassing MB in sales). So yes, BMW needed an internal change..and a drastic one at that. The big shift from conservative car design to controversial car design was a form of symbolism as to what was actually going on with the company as a whole.

So as I said, from a stylistic point of view the Bangle BMWs aren't as 'revolutionary' or 'innovative' as some may preach (though most were complaining at first)..BUT... when you consider the designs in the context of BMW desperately needing a shift in corporate direction, then it becomes very evident that what Bangle & Co. have created is a lot more than simply lines and shapes which stir a lot of controversary, a lot more than simply a re-interation of Ford designs of the mid 90's... .. it's all about BMW's story of re-inventing themselves to tackle MB and the increasing growth of Audi.

This is exactly why the E65 7er is such an important vehicle. As Osna stated in another thread.. the E65 7er will in the future be regarded as a watershed moment for BMW (not a direct quote, but very similar).

Also like i said in my previous post. The E65 7er was a statement. It was a statement of intent to highlight exactly where BMW were headed (ie: innovation, dynamic, distinctive, etc). Such a pity that BMW didn't more strongly emphasise the connection between the E65 7er's drastic design and the drastic change that BMW were undertaking to become #1 in the premium car market.

Great posts BeeMer Boi.

You have explained your views very well BB ....and I fully appreciate what you have said. BMW did want to stand apart from their peers at the most conservative end of the market ... It was a bold move for a manufacturer like BMW.