German Car Zone

Monster · 10-18-2007, 09:33 AM

Lets hope your wife will not come across this forum by accident. The Cayman and the Boxter S are very nice cars, but I don't think they will offer the same motorsport experience as the M3, however that didn't stop autoexpress from picking the Cayman S over the M3.

ateekt · 10-18-2007, 10:30 AM

Beautiful pics of a massive machine, it's been a long time, since I drooled

...!

Monster · 10-18-2007, 10:49 AM

Check out my photos of the BMW CS, I think you will drool as well.

hazza79 · 10-18-2007, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Lets hope your wife will not come across this forum by accident. The Cayman and the Boxter S are very nice cars, but I don't think they will offer the same motorsport experience as the M3, however that didn't stop autoexpress from picking the Cayman S over the M3.

IMO E92 strong selling points:
1 It has that dream/romance that I can trace back.
2 Co-developed by BMW racing team, eager performance (and brutal sometimes). I am probably going to capture 60% of it real performance ability, I hope BMW will treat M customers the way Porsche do (i.e. drivers training/certification and track days)
3. 4 extremely comfortable seats
4. Limited productions and release.

Things that put me off (in order of importance):
1. My wife keeps telling me "you are not thinking to buy a supped up 3 series". I don't quite follow that way of thinking actually.
2. Cayman S
3. Boxter S
4. My wife keeps telling me "You will regret it in two weeks like you always did with your other car". She's got a real point, as much as I hate to admit, sometime she understand me better than I do

I have read the comparison between Cayman S and E46 in the Porsche dealership, where can I get this Cayman S vs. E92 article? i googled it, only comes up with New M3 vs rivals | Car Group Tests | Car Reviews | Auto Express
which is not a full article or conclusive.

I gathered that E92 hasn't won the heart or lived up to most international/australian journalists (in the past 2 months, i bought more car magazines than i normally do in a year). By no means I would buy a car based on what some journalists say. It is nice to know that you are buying something supported by expert opinions, but in the end you got to be happy with it.

I find GCZ has very good opinionated people of different age from all over the world, some are fanatics some are savvy and open minded. This is why I enjoy reading the threads and share my experience too

Monster · 10-18-2007, 11:09 AM

Did you click on the links under the samll photo on the side, well here it what they say about the Cayman and the M3. I don't really trust the review from Autoexpress. EVO is still the best.

Cayman S Porsche Cayman S | Car Group Tests | Car Reviews | Auto Express

Quote:

Seen in some quarters as a poor man’s 911, the Cayman S is a car for those who care more about driving than status. It doesn’t have the same high profile as its big brother, but the flat tailgate and rounded rear wheelarches manage to give the Porsche an athletic appearance.

There are two fewer seats inside and a pair of modestly proportioned load bays rather than one large one. Due to these compact dimensions, the Cayman weighs a third-of-a-tonne less than the M3.

As a result, it needs considerably less power for potent performance. The mid-mounted flat-six engine lacks the output of its V8 rivals, but look at the acceleration times – a match for all bar the BMW. And it certainly packs a punch above 5,500rpm, when the guttural growl develops into a raucous wail. The engine is mated to brilliant brakes and a slick gearbox which makes shifts a pleasure, and so the Porsche immediately comes across as a very satisfying car to drive.

That’s before you’ve even got to a corner, where the Cayman really shows its class. The steering isn’t as positive as the BMW’s, so initially it seems slightly vague, but it’s not long before the magic of this car hits you. It’s well balanced and gives excellent feedback, yet with the supple suspension, the Cayman S floats over rough surfaces. Refinement isn’t flawless, as the noise levels show, but the Porsche’s ability to match your mood is unrivalled here.

With the exception of the instrument dials, which overlap attractively, the interior layout is nothing special. What’s more, buyers don’t even get leather seats or climate control as standard. Nevertheless, the Cayman S is one of the most fluid and rewarding cars on sale today.

M3 BMW M3 | Car Group Tests | Car Reviews | Auto Express

Quote:

There’s more to creating a new M3 than simply dropping a big engine into a 3-Series Coupé. While the hot version shares the same profile as the standard two-door, BMW claims it’s different enough to be considered a separate model in its own right.

Not least because so few parts are carried over. Externally, all the M3 has in common with the basic Coupé are its lights, doors and bootlid, and thanks to a wider track and flared arches, the new flagship is 22mm broader and a little longer.

But although the lines aren’t ostentatious, the M3 doesn’t appear particularly sophisticated. It’s not as elegant as the Cayman S or the S5, and simply doesn’t look like a £50,000 machine.

However, in typical M car fashion, the money has been spent on the engine. Tucked away under the bonnet’s power bulge, the 4.0-litre V8 is essentially the V10 from the M5 with two cylinders lopped off – although BMW’s engineers wouldn’t be too keen on that description, and it’s true this unit has a character of its own.

Mounted lower and further back than the straight-six in the previous generation, the 202kg powerplant is 15kg lighter. But it packs a punch. At start-up first thing in the morning, the highly tuned V8 sounds like a bag of bolts, yet once the engine management system lets you use all the 8,250rpm on offer, no opponent stands a chance.

The M3 sprints from 0-60mph in 4.5 seconds – that’s half-a-second quicker than any rival – and by the time the needle swept past 100mph at the test track, it was ahead by more than 1.5 seconds.

But you expect mighty top-end punch from such a rev-hungry engine. What’s arguably more impressive is the coupé’s ability to surge forwards from little more than 2,000rpm. Even though the BMW engine trails the other V8 cars for torque, with its 400Nm output, neither the Vauxhall nor the Audi was as quick in-gear.

The power is accessible, delivered instantly and accompanied by a V8 howl. What’s more, thanks to BMW’s Efficient Dynamics programme, the new M3 puts out 295g/km – that’s 28g/km less CO2 than before. Its engine is easily the best here.

But the trouble is, the V8 overpowers the rest of the package. While the gearchange is robust, it’s largely carried over from before, and on the road the driving experience never really takes off.

It’s not that the new car handles poorly – far from it. The M3 turns in more incisively than the Cayman S, has colossal grip and great poise and agility. But you don’t feel part of the experience as you do in the Porsche. It’s as if the engineers have focused so hard on delivering a technically impressive machine, they have forgotten that it needs to be fun for the driver first and foremost.

Numb steering is partially to blame, plus the M3 is snappy close to the limit and doesn’t flow down rough roads as effortlessly as it should. It’s brutally fast, but hard edged, even with our car’s optional £1,295 EDC damping in its softest mode.

It’s a different story on main roads, where the ride was impressive and the BMW rivalled the S5 for refinement. Body control is sensational, too.
But the cabin isn’t that special. While there is plenty of space for four adults and their luggage, the sporty detailing is rather clumsy; the steering wheel is too thick to grip properly and the bulging bonnet dominates the view out. We can’t fault the quality or comfort, yet the design is simply too plain. That’s not a mistake the S5 makes – so could it be the second Audi to embarrass the M3?

Monster · 10-18-2007, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazza79

IMO E92 strong selling points:
1 It has that dream/romance that I can trace back.
2 Co-developed by BMW racing team, eager performance (and brutal sometimes). I am probably going to capture 60% of it real performance ability, I hope BMW will treat M customers the way Porsche do (i.e. drivers training/certification and track days)
3. 4 extremely comfortable seats
4. Limited productions and release.

Things that put me off (in order of importance):
1. My wife keeps telling me "you are not thinking to buy a supped up 3 series". I don't quite follow that way of thinking actually.
2. Cayman S
3. Boxter S
4. My wife keeps telling me "You will regret it in two weeks like you always did with your other car". She's got a real point, as much as I hate to admit, sometime she understand me better than I do

I seriously doubt you will regret fulfilling your uni dream in 2 weeks. And even if you do, you can still sell it back at full price, such is the demand for that car.

Think about it this way, a "supped up 3 series" aka the M3 has been designed to be the best possible car BMW and M can make the 3 series to be, where else the Cayman S and the Boxter S has been designed by Porsche purposely to generate more profit, they are not designed to be as best as Porsche could make them. I am sure you know the reason why the Cayman S wasn't fitted with a factory standard LSD.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazza79

I find GCZ has very good opinionated people of different age from all over the world, some are fanatics some are savvy and open minded. This is why I enjoy reading the threads and share my experience too

Thanks mate, this forum is fantastic

That is why i spent way too much time in here.

hazza79 · 10-18-2007, 12:09 PM

I don't think they specifically point out that Cayman S or S5 is better than M3 (maybe I'm reading differently than you do). It uses many general terms (i.e. its like reading star sign horoscope, they use general terms to try to say one thing to a person but other meaning to other depending on the mood or state of mind).

For example
1. " Nevertheless, the Cayman S is one of the most fluid and rewarding cars on sale today."
This is a vague statement, not bold enough to stand one out over the crowd. Maybe the journalist just want to lock in some credibility by aligning what their write-up with other journalist's
2. "We can’t fault the quality or comfort, yet the design is simply too plain" (whatever F*** that sentence means)
Design is subjective terms, and also each company have their own recognized niche market to please. I think this journalist must have forgotten that BMW have worked their highly paid designers a** off to come up with the best result, obviously their designers have better/more credibility and bank of researched information than these journalists.

E92 look is potent enough to lure me to pay nonrefundable deposit, I didn't get that same feeling even after going to Porsche dealership so many times. No regret so far. Its the price I have to pay so I can consider all these cars until I'm ready to get one. I day dream about Cayman S a lot like a boy and his dream toy, and 1 year is a long time to consider

I will be participating Cayman S test drive on the track this December, I'm sure it will be an amazing experience

hazza79 · 10-18-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monster

Think about it this way, a "supped up 3 series" aka the M3 has been designed to be the best possible car BMW and M can make the 3 series to be, where else the Cayman S and the Boxter S has been designed by Porsche purposely to generate more profit, they are not designed to be as best as Porsche could make them. I am sure you know the reason why the Cayman S wasn't fitted with a factory standard LSD.

Agreed to certain extend.
1. Cayman S is derived from Boxster S. Boxster S is 10 years learning curve.
2. Australian M3 is highly spec-up, even though M3 cost more at $180k on road than $165,000 Cayman S, M3 still represents (relative) value.
Designed from scratch, 100% all-new V8 high rev engine, etcetc
Just imagine how much that is in Porsche terms.
3. Cayman or Boxster is not profit making orientated. IMO, they are both true Porsche cars. Cayenne can be branded as the shameless money making scheme that compromised the brand, although the face-lifted version (cough cough, which I happen to have) is a true Porsche (cough cough)

Monster · 10-21-2007, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hazza79

Agreed to certain extend.
1. Cayman S is derived from Boxster S. Boxster S is 10 years learning curve.
2. Australian M3 is highly spec-up, even though M3 cost more at $180k on road than $165,000 Cayman S, M3 still represents (relative) value.
Designed from scratch, 100% all-new V8 high rev engine, etcetc
Just imagine how much that is in Porsche terms.
3. Cayman or Boxster is not profit making orientated. IMO, they are both true Porsche cars. Cayenne can be branded as the shameless money making scheme that compromised the brand, although the face-lifted version (cough cough, which I happen to have) is a true Porsche (cough cough)

I agree the Boxster is a true Porsche, and the Cayman is one as well, but the cars potential is limited because Porsche doesn't want to make them as good as the 911.

As for your Cayenne, I have to say the face-lift version doesn't look bad, wish they did more with the interior though. As for the Cayenne being a true Porsche, we both know the answer

There is one question I have always wanted to ask the Cayenne driver, Do you feel like you are driving a Porsche on the road?

hazza79 · 10-21-2007, 01:55 PM

First, I'm going to tell you that Cayenne is a 4WD, but its arguably a keen driver car. Cayenne Turbo is not a joke, it will deliver quite an experience even to the fanatic.

How a Cayenne S drives on sports mode
1. All new 4.8Ltr DFI engine with Vario Cam. Driver only need to know where to locate the "sport button", one touch and it will lower suspension setting to setting 2 (lowered) and map the throttle response, gear shift changed later for maximum performance and down shift sooner for engine braking.
2. On sports mode, in the case you suddenly lift up your foot from accelerator pedal, the car immediately think you are about to corner or try to brake/avoid an accident, it immediately applies the break slightly, if you need to make an emergency brake the system is primed up (i.e. brake fluid) and you could wonderfully appreciate this 21st century technology doesn't exist on Porsche older model.
3. If you want anti-roll system, get PDCC. You need it for track day, but not for everyday driving. For A$7000, it's a steal

4. You need the sport seat or better, standard seat will not be suficient, I got a sore a** and I could swear I almost torn off gluteus maximus muscle on the track day. I met another guy who also participated on the day, he drives like a maniac and he's got the same problem for few days. Will I do it again? Hell yeah

Since that this is an M3 thread, I can't help but to compare the two:

1. Driving position & Center of gravity
This is self explanatory, M3 will satisfy that brutality you crave from any sports car. M3 special M seat is comfortable but wrap your body at the same time. The higher position you get from Cayenne is somewhat addictive though, you look down to most other car on road.
2. Power to weight ratio:
M3 309 kw 1.8kg compared to Cayenne S 283kw 2.2 tonnes, so another self explanatory point
3. Sport button
M3 have Sport plus, I didn't exploited it on the test drive, but I'm already convinced with "normal setting"
4. Adjustable damper setting
Both have comfort, normal, sport. A taste of things to come. Call it whatever, but I like it a lot!
5. High revving engine
M3 dynamic and potential is again emphasized further, red line @ 8400 rpm. Cayenne V8 is capped at 6500rpm
6. Brake
Both highly potent for the car specification, and can easily wipe out that excess speed. M3 is cross drilled steel brake, but only available with black caliper. Cayenne S is painted silver, Cayenne turbo is painted red and cross drilled. I think you could specify ceramic brake on Cayenne in the future for $15,000 (ouch!). I have seen it installed on limited edition Cayenne. Don't get discouraged by journalist referring to squeaky brake system on M3, they tested under most extreme condition (i.e. track day on hot desert climate 38 degree centigrade) I wouldn't abuse my own car.

I know this is silly comparison for two cars designed with different mindset, I would still like buy a Cayenne S even if already owned an M3 and vice versa. Please tell me what car you aspire to!

when you have time check out
Cayenne V8 exhaust note (I LOVE IT!!) For your mobile phone - Entertainment - Home - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
Cayenne in details Gallery - Cayenne S - All Cayenne Models - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
Cayenne mini site http://www.porsche.com/all/cayenne/australia.aspx

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